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"Se canta, que cante" (Please translate)
To Occitan speakers,
Hello! Your discussions on this forum regarding the Occitan language piqued my curiosity. I had never heard anything about this language before until Guillem and others mentioned it here. So, I went looking for any CD I could find recorded in Occitan, and after searching and searching...and searching, I finally found one! It’s by a singer named Patric. After a dozen listens to this CD, I now absolutely love how this language sounds! It's like an intriguing blend of French, Spanish, and Italian. I especially love this song that he sings called "Se Canta". It sounds both sad and romantic -- I'm dying to know what he’s saying! All I know is "canta" has something to do with singing. (Three years of studying Spanish has done very little for me, I'm afraid). The CD came with lyric notes, so I'm posting the lyrics here. Would the Occitan speakers in this forum be so kind enough to translate it for me? (I'm hoping that it lives up to my romantic notions).
Se Canta
Dejós ma fenestra i a un aucelon
Tota la nuèit canta, canta sa cançon
Se canta que cante, canta pas per ièu
canta per ma mia qu'es al luènh de ièu
A la font de Nimes i a un amètlier
Que fa de flors blancas coma de papier
Aquelas montanhas que tant nautas son
m'empachan de veire mas amors ont son
Nautas son plan nautas mas s'abaissaràn
e mas amoretas se raprocharàn
Baissatz vos montanhas planas levatz vos
perqué posque veire mas amors ont son
I'm a native Catalan speaker, a language that is very close to Occitan. Furthermore, I studied Occitan both at University and in Occitania. I hope these beautiful romantic verses will please you.
Beneath my window there is a bird
it sings all night, it sings its song
If it sings let it sing, it doesn't sing for me
it sing for my beloved one who is far away
In the fountain of Nimes there is an almond tree
with flowers that are white as paper
Those mountains, which are so high
won't let me see where my loved ones are
They are high very high but they will come down
and my dear loved ones will come nearer to me
Mountains come down, plains rise
so that I may see where my loved ones are
Thanks so much for the translation, Jordi. It's definitely a romantic song. Although, the stanza about the almond tree near the fountain of Nimes seems out of place with the rest of the song. Odd.
I have a few question for you: You say that Catalan is very close to Occitan, does that mean that they’re mutually understandable or only to a certain extent? How is language instruction set up in Catalonia? Are children taught both Catalan and Castilian at the primary level? Also, is there a big difference between Catalan and Valencian? I've read that they're one and the same language, however, the Valencians don't agree with that assessment.
I apologize for all the questions, but I find Spain to be a bit puzzling in that it's not so much a country per se but rather an assemblage of "countries," with laws and systems different from the next. How is the central government able to hold Spain together when there's all these autonomous communities that I'm sure don’t always see eye to eye? Is there a strong national identity or is it more regional?
Elaine:
Written Literary Catalan and Occitan are mutually understandable to a great extent and the present spoken languages are only understandable to a certain extent among native speakers without training. I would say they were even closer in the 13th century when parts of Catalonia and Occitania were the same political country. Until the French conquered Occitania, of course. Since then the languages have very much evolved but the written forms are more understandable than the spoken forms. For those who don't know this the written forms of Spanish and Portuguese are also very much mutually understandable but the spoken forms are much more different. They are all neighbouring evolutions of Latin, Catalan and Occitan would be one set and Spanish and Portuguese another. Furthermore, Catalan is very much alive (over 70% of the population of the Catalan speaking regions of Spain speak the language fluently) whilst Occitan is only spoken by a minority nowadays (according to some census there would be 8 million speakers of Catalans (70%) and 2 million of Occitan speakers right now (15% of the population of Occitania.)
The Catalan language was taken to the ancient Kingdom of Valencia and the Balearic Islands from the 13th to the 17th century in some cases when huge settlements of Catalans were carried out and the moors were sent to the North African shore as late as the 17th century. They are the same language and we can perfectly understand each other. As a matter of fact I am of Valencian origin myself so I should know. My Valencian parents have always spoken the same language in Barcelona and people can tell they are Valencians by their accent and I speak Catalan to all my cousins from a Valencian village. The language taught in Valencian schools has no more differences than you will find between British and American English varieties of English. Most Valencian speakers normally call the language "Valencian" since there is tradition to that, the way you might find some American speakers call the language American instead of English. Actually, Valencian universities always call the language "Catalan" and you have to go to a "Catalan Department" if you want to take a degree to teach "Valencian". Some people in Valencia, usually right-wing regionalists for political reasons, want a different language but most users accept the unity of the Catalan language and a Valencian speaker will usually speak in his own language to a Barcelona speaker and not in Spanish. The main difference is the accent and some words. Same as GB, Australia or America. The spelling rules are pretty much the same for everybody. Since Catalonia and the Valencian Country have common borders you will find that dialects on both sides of the border are exactly the same. The most archaic form of Catalan is the one spoken in the Balearic Islands but Catalan is pretty much the same everywhere.
There is a strong national identity in Catalonia and the Basque Country and not so strong national minorities in the Valencian Country, the Balearic Islands and Galicia. The Spanish Constitution states that there are "historical nationalities" in Spain. A strong self-government pride is to be found in those places I mentioned. The strongest "independentist" movements are to be found in Catalonia and the Basque Country where it could be around 20% of the votes right now. It's far too much a complicated issue for Antimoon and I wouldn't like to debate over this subject in this forum with my fellow countrymen since there are strong feelings in Spain over these issues.
The law states that children have to be fluent both in Catalan and Spanish (known as Valencian in Valencian regional laws although the Valencian Academy of the Language acknowledges the unity of the language) by the time they finish their compulsory schooling at 16. Catalan is the main language of primary schools in Catalonia and also to a great extent in the Valencian Country and the Balearic Islands. I can assure you that teenagers in these regions can speak both languages perfectly. According to some surveys bilingual teenagers in Spain have better "levels" in all languages (Catalan, Spanish and English) (Galician or Basque, of course in those areas) than monolingual Spanish speakers. It's a matter of training minds in languages from an early age.
Excuse me for being so long but you did ask a lot. I don't have too much time to edit, so please forgive me If you find anything wrong.
Elaine:
I thought I would give you a translation of the song into Contemporary Catalan so that you may see the differences for yourself. As you will see the languages remain close to a certain extent but Catalan is a bit nearer Spanish or Italian in some words and there is an evolution to the mediaeval language.
Se Canta /Si Canta (If it sings)
Dejós ma fenestra i a un aucelon /Sota la meua finestre hi ha un ocellet
Tota la nuèit canta, canta sa cançon / Tota la nit canta, canta la seva cançó
Se canta que cante, canta pas per ièu /Si canta, que canti, no canta per mi
canta per ma mia qu'es al luènh de ièu /canta per la meva que és lluny de mi
A la font de Nimes i a un amètlier / A la font de Nimes hi ha un ametller
Que fa de flors blancas coma de papier / Que fa flors blanques com de paper
Aquelas montanhas que tant nautas son /Aquelles muntanyes que tan altes són
m'empachan de veire mas amors ont son /M'impedeixen veure els meus amors on són
Nautas son plan nautas mas s'abaissaràn /Altes són molt altes però abaixaran
e mas amoretas se raprocharàn /i els meus amorets s'aproparan
Baissatz vos montanhas planas levatz vos /Baixeu-vos muntanyes, planes alceu-vos
perqué posque veire mas amors ont son /perquè pugui veure on són els meus amors
I'd love to listen to this song, is it possible to find it on internet?
No estic d'acord amb tu, Jordi. Hom diu que el valencià té trets força diferenciats del català, així com la parla de les Illes Balears
To Antimooners:
My friend Carlos (that is Spanish for Charles and it's Carles in Catalan)
tells me in perfect Catalan he doesn't agree with me and that there are great differences between Catalan, Valencian and Balearic. Please take note of my answer and I will not carry on with this subject since Carlos knows perfectly well that what I say is true. As I told you previously language is a political issue in Spain and some wish to break the Catalan language because it is cosndiered a threat to the Castilian Spanish sway in the Eastern Spanish seabord. That makes all Catalan, Valencian, Balearic and world universities laugh their heads off. This is the translation of the Catalan text I've written to my friend, at the end of this message.
My friend I have a M.A degree in Catalan Philology. I'm the son and grandson of Valencians who came to Barcelona and never switched to another language. I travel every year to my parents' village in the Valencian Country and you know perfectly well that the language that is taught in Valencian and Balearic schools is the same than Catalonia with slight differences. There are more differences between the varieties of English. I also hold a M.A degree in English Translation and Interpreting and I also work as a Conference Interpreter. The fact is that you call yourself Carlos and not Carles and that says it all to me. It's not worth it my friend and I will carry on in English in this forum with threads related to the English language. I've got enough of people politising the language because the differences between Castilian Spanish and Andalusian Spanish are much greater but that, of course, you will never say it nor will you defend it. We therefore wish you good wind and a new boat (Catalan saying widely used in Valencia)."
Amic meu sóc llicenciat en filologia catalana, fill de pares i avis valencians que mai no van canvair de llengua. Vaig cada estiu al poble dels pares al País Valencià i saps perfectament que la llengua que s'ensenya a les escoles valencianes i balears és la mateixa que la de Catalunya amb diferències lleugeres. N'hi ha més, infinitament més entre les varietats de l'anglès. També sóc llicenciat en traducció i interpretació anglesa i faig també d'intèrpret de conferències. El fet que et digues Carlos i no Carles ho diu tot per a mi. No paga la pena amic meul meu i seguiré en anglès en aquest fòrum amb fils que tracten de llengua anglesa. Ja està bé de persones que polititzen la llengua perquè les diferències entre castellà i andalús són molt més grans però això, és clar, ni ho diràs ni ho defensaràs. Et desitgem, per tant, bon vent i barca nova.
UNFORTUNATELY NOWADAYS OCCITAN IS A DEAD LANGUAGE.
Even the majority of "occitans" doesn't identify itself as "occitan" but provençal, gascon, auvergnat,etc...Occitania never existed historically, it's a linguistic construction.My own grand father who speak an occitan dialect from Auvergne cannot understand a guy from Montpellier who speaks another dialect.Furthermore, occitan for common people is an artificial notion,they say patois or "auvergnat language" but for them "occitan" seems to be a construction made buy linguists.
Sio desolat mas es aital, auriai volgut que l'occitan foguèsse una vertadièra lenga mas si le gent vòl pas mai la parlar,es la fatalitat.Deissem-la morir en patz.
UNFORTUNATELY NOWADAYS OCCITAN IS A DEAD LANGUAGE.
Even the majority of "occitans" doesn't identify itself as "occitan" but provençal, gascon, auvergnat,etc...Occitania never existed historically, it's a linguistic construction.My own grand father who speaks an occitan dialect from Auvergne cannot understand a guy from Montpellier who speaks another dialect.Furthermore, occitan for common people is an artificial notion,they say patois or "auvergnat language" but for them "occitan" seems to be a construction made buy linguists.
Sio desolat mas es aital, auriai volgut que l'occitan foguèsse una vertadièra lenga mas si le gent vòl pas mai la parlar,es la fatalitat.Deissem-la morir en patz.
Elaine,
I'm glad you like the song and have now an appreciation for the Occitan language.
"Se canta" is a very old Occitan hymn which everyone in Occitania learns from childhood. Perhaps the reason the stanza that you mentioned seems out of place is because there are many different versions sung in different regions. My theory is that this particular one is sung by the Nemausais (people from Nîmes).
The Toulousain version goes like this:
Dejós ma fenèstra i a un aucelon
Tota la nuèit canta, canta pas per ieu
Se canta que canta, canta pas per ieu
Canta per ma mia qu'es al luenh de ieu
Aquelas montanhas que tan nautas son
M’empachan de veire mas amors ont son
Nautas ben son nautas mas s’abaissaràn
E mas amoretas se raprocharàn
Dejós ma fenèstra i a un ametlièr
Que fa de flors blancas coma de papièr
Aquelas flors blancas faràn d’ametlas
Ne remplirem las pòchas per ela et per vos
Aval dins las planas i a un albar traucat
Lo cocut i canta benlèu i a nisat
Translation:
Under my window there is a little bird
It sings all night, (but) it does not sing for me
It sings what it sings, it does not sing for me
It sings for my beloved who is far from me
Those mountains which are so high
Prevent me from seeing where my loved ones are
They are high, very high, but they will come down
And then my dear loved ones will approach
Under my window there is an almond tree
That makes flowers white as paper
These white flowers will make almonds
We will fill our pockets with them, for her and you
Down in the plains there is a willow
The cuckoo sings there in his nest
A bit different and as you can see, no mention of a fountain in Nîmes!
Ci,
You can listen to a one minute sample of Patric's version of "Se canta" on his website at http://www.aura-occitania.com/patric.php
It's very short but it should give you an idea of how this song sounds.
Jordi,
Thanks for the Catalan translation! I will keep it for my files.
From Majorca, good evening. In Valencia, Catalonia and the Balearic Islands we speak catalan. My chindren speak catalan (father language), french (mother language) and also spanish.
Although the version of "Aquelas montanhas" of my friend Jordi is perfect, we sing also another catalan one:
Sota la finestra canta un ocellic:
tota la nit canta, canta el seu delit.
Si canta, que canti, que no és pas per mi...
Canta per l'amiga que és tan lluny de mi
Aquelles muntanyes tan altes d'allà
em priven de veure l'amor com està.
Si sabés on veure-la, per 'nar-la a trobar
cap riu no em doldria, de por d'ofegà'm.
Aquelles muntanyes bé que es vinclaran
i les amoretes apareixeran.
Vincent,
The Occitan language is alive and refuses to die in places like Toulouse, Narbonne, Albi, Béziers, Montpellier, etc., areas in the historic Languedoc province where the Occitan spirit thrives despite Franchimande domination. It's true that there never existed a country called Occitania but the term did exist as early as the 14th century to describe the land, people and the language of the south. Late mediaeval texts show that counts, lords, and kings used terms like "respublica occitan", "patria linguae occitanae" and "lingua occitana" for this region that spoke la langue d'oc. All of this was forgotten and erased from history when the kings of île-de-france conquered the lands and forced the people to speak la langue d'oïl and learn the history of the north. Revivalists in the early 20th century revived the term "occitan" after they read these mediaeval texts. Today in France the use of the term is a political one. Supporters of the oc language call it Occitan but the people who rarely speak it and only in their homes, and those who want to see its final destruction for the sake of one nation, one language of France call it "patois" or "corrupt french".
You're correct that many occitans identify themselves as prouvençau, gascon, auvergnat, etc. Even in Languedoc there's tolosenc, narbonés, montpelhieirenc, and besierenc, subdialects of languedocien that when spoken are almost unrecognisable from one region to the next one. This is what happens when a culture is destroyed and all that is left is a spoken language and not a written one. After the French conquest there was no Occitan standard to learn and no one to teach it. The Institut d'Etudes Occitanes has developed a standard based on the classical languedocien dialect but naturally, the provençals, gascons, auvergnats, limousins, etc. have not accepted this standard. I am hopeful that in time this attitude will change because this is the only way Occitan can survive. Look at the situation of Catalan. Not too long ago Catalan was also an endangered language but now it is the official language of the region because of the combine strength, pride and activism of the Catalan people.
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