Models for Multilinguals

K. T.   Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:00 am GMT
Should you aim for a native accent or do you try to have a slight foreign accent in the language, so everyone knows that you are a good speaker of the language, but still a citizen of your native country?

I always aim for the native accent. Some people choose the other way.
Some have no choice (not able to match sounds closely enough).

I usually get some sort of native accent, but not always. I found out that apparently my Portuguese accent sounds native-like, BUT it's too casual sounding (like my writing, I guess). When I hear good speakers of a second language now, I think I'll ask them what models they used for speaking.
Guest   Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:12 am GMT
I think one should aim for a native accent, because chances are you won't eliminate your foreign accent completely. So you'll end up with a good accent but with a hint of nonnativeness. If you don't even bother improving your accent citing that you want to retain your nationality, you'll not only end up with a completely foreign accent,but it will be bad as well.

This is like the quote "aim for the moon, even if you miss you'll end up in the stars" or some shit like that. Chances are you wont sound native, but you'll have a good accent none the less.
Guest   Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:35 am GMT
When you aim for a 100% native accent, wouldn't you have to target some particular locality, so the folks there would think you've lived there all your life. For example, from what I see on this forum, the accent in Wisconsin is a whold heck of a lot different than here (easterm NY) (broughten, thoughten, coughten, etc?)..

I suppose in English, you could just aim for pure RP, though.
zatsu   Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:45 am GMT
Hmm, you'll probably aim for the native accent your hear the most, right?
Like, generally speaking, if you constantly hear American English, you won't aim for the Australian English accent...
But yes, for 100% native accent.


<<I found out that apparently my Portuguese accent sounds native-like, BUT it's too casual sounding (like my writing, I guess). When I hear good speakers of a second language now, I think I'll ask them what models they used for speaking.>>

Really?? That's great!^^
To which Portuguese accent are you referring to?

I think the only way is to listen a lot and repeat what you hear?
Also wouldn't almost any native serve as a good model?
Guest   Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:48 am GMT
It depends on how you want to be perceived. In alot of countries, its to your advantage socially, to be perceived as a foreigner.

Before going to Brazil, I put considerable effort into ridding my voice of even the slightest trace of anglophone characteristic - only to regret it later.

In Brazil, people treat you better if they know that you're a "gringo'' right away...especially the women. If people think you're a local, theres nothing special about you.
K. T.   Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:31 am GMT
I only know Brazilian Portuguese, zatsu. You know both Continental and Brazilian, don't you? Apparently I say something like "ji" for "de" and I was told that this is a sloppy way that some people speak and I should avoid that.

I don't know how to fake an accent in another language. I either nail the accent or I get something I hope is close. I don't know how to colour my accent so I get that sophisticated/suave " I'm a smart foreigner" sound.

I can easily believe that the foreign accent may be an asset in some countries. In Japan, though, having a native sound may land you on
TV as a "foreign talent" and earn you a nice stack of Yen.
K. T.   Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:38 am GMT
About English: I saw that post in the English section about "broughten", etc. It was news to me.
Xie   Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:45 am GMT
>>>Should you aim for a native accent or do you try to have a slight foreign accent in the language, so everyone knows that you are a good speaker of the language, but still a citizen of your native country?

I didn't try this but I knew I faked one when I was asked if I stayed in a target country. I'd essentially imitate a native accent based on my favourite variety, my gender and my identity. Owing to my descent, my accent would sound ambiguous only if I were learning sth like Japanese, so in principle any native accent would do. But then, the sufficient condition is I won't probably learn an accent of a fishmonger, a kid or a woman.

>>This is like the quote "aim for the moon, even if you miss you'll end up in the stars" or some shit like that. Chances are you wont sound native, but you'll have a good accent none the less.

Yeah, I even know a perfect, literary proverb from Confucian scholars. If you aim for high, you get the middle; if you aim for middle, you get the low.

I also won't probably learn dialects - I mean the Scottish accent or Bayernisch. Unless something great happens, I shall remain a tourist and maybe an advanced foreign student/highly educated working foreigner anyway.
Guest   Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:12 pm GMT
Interesting topic!!

"I only know Brazilian Portuguese"
K.T- Do you have a Brazilian dialect you like most? I am a native "carioca" speaker but love the northern dialects, specially the "Bahia" speech like "mãinha" (mom), "painho" (daddy) and the slow motion talk.

"If you aim for high, you get the middle; if you aim for middle, you get the low. "
Xie- I like this proverb because it shows how far one can get depending on his/her aspiration. Could you give me the characters for this proverb?

"I also won't probably learn dialects - I mean the Scottish accent or Bayernisch. Unless something great happens, I shall remain a tourist and maybe an advanced foreign student/highly educated working foreigner anyway."
Xie- Dialects is something that captivates my attention, which took me to study the Okinawa and Osaka dialect because I studied in Okinawa and Osaka. In English I like the southern drawl of Tennessee but can't learn that living in Japan. In Chinese some friends tried to teach me Cantonese but I guess I'll stick with Mandarin because everyone understands it, at least in theory. As for German, I like the "bayrisch" dialect but probably won't learn it unless I live in Germany one day. Schweizerdeutsch is way too crazy to learn...
As for the other languages I'm studying right now I would be glad to speak fluently and not have people asking me about my accent.

"having a native sound may land you on
TV as a "foreign talent" and earn you a nice stack of Yen."
K.T.-Many Japanese suggested me to appear on T.V. but the idea of being treated like a "speaking pet" isn't attractive to me because I'll probably appear on a stupid program praising the "difficulties of the Japanese language" (Which I don't really see...) and behaving like a fool just to please the masses...
From all the foreigners I see on T.V. in Japan there's only one guy who appears regularly on interesting programs (on NHK) and speaks in Kyoto dialect. Apparently the Japanese have fun listening to foreigners speaking Japanese...
J.C.   Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:14 pm GMT
I wonder why my nick appeared as Guest...
Sorry guest...
Xie   Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:03 pm GMT
One proverb I can find with quotations is: http://www.zdic.net/cd/ci/8/ZdicE5Zdic8FZdic9626648.htm

This is actually by Li Shimin as emperor... but a possible variant is to replace "law" (法) with study (學) as the main theme, like what I wrote, 學乎其上,得乎其中;學乎其中,得乎其下。 I confess that I have great difficulty translating very literary stuff... but the rough meaning is getting the middle when you aim at high, and low when you aim at middle. The moral is to set acceptably high standards to do better.

Your target accent should, imo, somehow match you as a person. I don't want to end up like Eliza - speaking a prestigious accent without matching social status and knowledge for surviving with the unmatching status.
zatsu   Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:13 pm GMT
@ K.T.
Oh, that's right, you remembered!^^
Well, as far as I can tell, the "ji" sound is actually widely used and I never heard anyone calling it sloppy before...
Maybe it also depends on regions or situations, but for instance, at the end of the words it's practically a must (words like "verdade" or "saudade").

When it stands alone think it alternates between "ji" or "di" sound, but "di" is more often right than "ji":
- louca "de" saudade => "di"
- carro "de" bois => "di"
- fim "de" semana => "di"
- amanhã "de" manhã => "ji"
- "de" você => "ji"

Lol, it's actually really hard to think of good examples, but hope these help. Think it would indeed sound strange if you use "ji" for every single "de", which doesn't mean the "ji" sound is always incorrect...


It's said people stop listening to some sounds when growing up, frequencies they don't often hear, and that's why adults have more difficulties on "catching" an accent, because sometimes they just can't hear the different nuances.
I still believe that it may take more time, but you'll be able to reproduce any sounds if you try to hear them carefully and spoken by different people. (^^)v
zatsu   Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:18 pm GMT
@ J.C.
Oh, I didn't know of any foreign succeeding in Japanese TV!
Can you tell me that guy's name?
What does he usually talk about?


Actually I'm trying to improve my Japanese and think I'll move to Japan soon enough.
You have a really interesting background, already speaking a few Japanese dialects, Chinese and even learning other languages... wow, well done!
K. T.   Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:56 pm GMT
"If you aim for high, you get the middle; if you aim for middle, you get the low."

I like that.
___________________________________________________________

I've heard or read this strategy of sounding a "little foreign"
more than once. Does that mean that the person who uses such an accent can actually speak WITHOUT a foreign accent as well? I also wonder if this is just a clever excuse for the inability to sound native in some cases.
_______________________________________________________


J. C. san,
Brazilian Accents:
I've mostly been around people from SP. I listen to recordings, though.
I enjoy listening to samples, but I need more practice in identifying Portuguese accents. I was surprised when I heard Continental Portuguese last year (for perhaps the second time in my life). I could understand it, but it's like it was spoken in a different colour if that makes any sense.

Foreign Japanese Pets: I know what you mean. Dave Spector has been making the rounds on Japanese TV for a long time. I like it when they have another talent instead of just being able to speak Japanese.
K. T.   Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:09 am GMT
Zatsu,

Thanks for the explanation on "ji". One of my models always seemed to use "ji" for everything. Another speaker (a professional), corrected me.
"Some people do that," he told me recently "but it's lazy/sloppy". He speaks English well, but he says it's difficult getting Americans to correct him when he makes a mistake, so I appreciate his criticism. I can always improve.