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English and romance languages extremely similar?
<<These Latin words were bequeathed to us and imposed upon us, and we haven't fully gotten rid of them yet.>>
Are there any plans afoot to get rid of these latinate words in the near future?
Romance lexicon in English should not be regarded as an approval of their languages by us, as an attempt by us to be like them, or even that we like them.
Yes it should. Many English speakers, specially the educated ones, like to use superfluous French expressions a lot.
<<Romance lexicon in English should not be regarded >>
"interpreted" is better than "regarded" Romance lexicon in English should not be interpreted as an approval of their languages by us, as an attempt by us to be like them, or even that we like them.
Nah, he used the plural, so he must be referring to a group. I guess he's referring to English speakers over Romance language speakers. That's a pretty arbitrary division.
Leasnam : « In those set acronyms, no, you wouldn't find a germanic structure for French, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in the spoken language. »
Ni l'inverse d'ailleurs. Pourquoi veux-tu que le français, une langue romane, ait une structure germanique ? Mais même si tu le voulais très fort, il t'incomberait néanmoins de le prouver — sous peine de ne convaincre personne. Leasnam : « In French, the adjective can come after the noun (like typical romance languages) OR it can come before (like germanic languages). This tendency in French is undoubtedly of Germanic origin. » Non, ce qui est indubitable c'est ton inclination grandissante à fantasmer une origine germanique de la syntaxe adjectivale française. Si tu réfléchissais ne serait-ce qu'un instant, si tu t'informais un tant soit peu, tu comprendrais qu'en français la position relative de l'adjectif par rapport au substantif véhicule un sémantisme différentiel — fait inexistant dans les langues germaniques. <un grand homme> → {un homme moralement remarquable par sa grandeur} <un homme grand> → {un homme physiquement remarquable par sa hauteur} <une vraie femme> → {une femme femme} <une femme vraie> → {une femme naturelle} <une simple question> → {juste une question, rien de plus} <une question simple> → {une question pas compliquée} <un certain flottement> → {une indécision perceptible} <un flottement certain> → {une indécision manifeste} Leasnam : « When we say that French has germanic structural/syntactical elements we mean mainly compound verbal tenses, many of which are also found in the other romance languages. » C'est énième fois que tu serines en boucle le même sophisme. Si on se range à tes artifices, alors le syntagme Fr <une femme fatale> est d'origine germanique puisqu'on trouve aussi bien An <a femme fatale>, Al <eine Femme fatale>, Né <een femme fatale>, Da <en femme fatale>, No <en femme fatale>, Su <en femme fatale> etc. Risible...
"Leasnam Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:02 pm GMT
Romance lexicon in English should not be regarded as an approval of their languages by us, as an attempt by us to be like them, or even that we like them." you sound really arrogant ! "an approval of their languages" lol... Like we care...
"In those set acronyms, no, you wouldn't find a germanic structure for French, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in the spoken language"
I know some french vocabulary come from the Franks <<Mots français d'origine francique: - marais < *marisk (ancien francique, cf. l'anglais marsh et l'allemand Marsch (land)) -marque (de marquer) & marche (frontière)< *marka (ancien francique, cf. l'anglais mark) - rang < *hring « anneau, cercle, assemblée militaire » (ancien francique, cf. l'allemand Ring) - harangue < *harihring littéralement « troupe, armée (hari) & assemblée (hring) » - trêve < *treuwa « contrat, convention » (ancien francique, cf. l'allemand Treue) - haubert < halsberg littéralement « cou (hals) & protection (berg) » - beffroi < bergfrid littéralement « veille, protection (berg) & paix (frid) » - bleu < blao (cf. l'allemand blau) - abandonner (de bannjan = bannir) NL = bannen, verbannen - astiquer (de steken = pousser, utiliser un bâton pointu, relaté à stakka) NL = poetsen (faire briller) mais aussi steken - bâtir, bastille (de bast = écorce, écorce de bouleau en lamelle, ficelle, matériel de construction) NL = bast (écorce) bouwen (bâtir) - bière (de bera) NL = bier - blanc (de blinken = briller) NL = blink (cirage) blinken - bleu (de blao) NL = blauw - bordure (de boord = bord) NL = boord - brun (de bruin) NL = bruin - chic (de schikken = bien ranger, donc être valable) NL = schikken -choc, choquer (de scoc, schok = secousse) NL = schok etc....>> well I don't know.
French
"toucher" from Old French tochier (French doublet toquer "to offend"), from Vulgar Latin unattested form *toccare "to knock, strike, offend", of Germanic origin, akin to O.H.G zuchôn "to jerk, tug"; M.L.G. tucken "to tug", O.E. tūcian "to disturb, mistreat, torment". "rincer" from Middle French rincer "to rinse" from Old French raïncer, raïncier, of Germanic origin akin to Old Norse hreinsa "to rinse, clean out" < hrein "pure, clean"; cf. Dan. rense "to purify", Norw. rense "to cleanse", Swed. rensa "to purge, clear, wipe clean", Dan., Norw., and Swed. ren "clean"; Dutch rein "clean", Ger. rein "pure, clean"; akin to Gothic hrains "clean" "rime" from OF, deriv. of rimer to rhyme < Gallo-Romance *rimāre to put in a row ≪ OHG rīm series, row, cf. Eng rime, rhyme "race" < It razza < OHG reiza line, rīga line, lineage cf OE rāw row, line, series "garçon" from Old French garçun "servant", oblique case of gars "boy, soldier", of Germanic origin (Frankish *wrakjon oblique case of *wrakjo "servant, boy") cf. O.H.G. wrecheo, recko "an exile", O.S. wrekkio "a banished person, exile, stranger", O.E. wrecca "wretch, stranger, exile", ON rekkr "man", all from P.Gmc. *wrakjan; Ger. Recke "renowned warrior, hero", Eng. wretch.).
CID : « "race" < It razza < OHG reiza line, rīga line, lineage cf OE rāw row, line, series ».
Faux. Emprunt français à l'italien dont l'étymon est également attesté en latin : <ratio>. CID : « "rime" from OF, deriv. of rimer to rhyme < Gallo-Romance *rimāre to put in a row ≪ OHG rīm series, row, cf. Eng rime, rhyme ». Faux. D'abord An <rhyme> est un emprunt au français. Ensuite les paléofamilles romane, celtique et germanique etc présentaient des étymons similaires, ce qui accrédite la thèse du source indo-européenne et non pas celle d'un emprunt d'une famille à une autre. À noter que Fr <rime> est <rym> en polonais. L'ukrainien <ри́ма> est apparenté Gr <ῥυθμός>, tout comme le russe <ри́фма>. On trouve aussi <rým> en slovaque et en tchèque, et <рима> en bulgare. CID : « "rincer" from Middle French rincer "to rinse" from Old French raïncer, raïncier, of Germanic origin akin to Old Norse hreinsa "to rinse, clean out" < hrein "pure, clean"; cf. Dan. rense "to purify", Norw. rense "to cleanse", Swed. rensa "to purge, clear, wipe clean", Dan., Norw., and Swed. ren "clean"; Dutch rein "clean", Ger. rein "pure, clean"; akin to Gothic hrains "clean" ». Faux. Fr <rincer> est à rapprocher de La <recentiare>. Mais surtout à rapprocher du piedmontais <arzenté>. et du ligure <arrûxentá>. Et d'ailleurs An <rinse> est encore (et toujours !) un emprunt au français. CID : « "toucher" from Old French tochier (French doublet toquer "to offend"), from Vulgar Latin unattested form *toccare "to knock, strike, offend", of Germanic origin, akin to O.H.G zuchôn "to jerk, tug"; M.L.G. tucken "to tug", O.E. tūcian "to disturb, mistreat, torment". ». L'étymon paléoroman correspondant à Fr <toucher> n'est certainement pas germanique, et vraisemblablement pas du latin puisque le latin n'est pas une langue romane. Tous ces mots genre <guerre>, <blanc<, <belle>, <toucher> etc sont authentiquement romans. CID : « "garçon" from Old French garçun "servant", oblique case of gars "boy, soldier", of Germanic origin (Frankish *wrakjon oblique case of *wrakjo "servant, boy") cf. O.H.G. wrecheo, recko "an exile", O.S. wrekkio "a banished person, exile, stranger", O.E. wrecca "wretch, stranger, exile", ON rekkr "man", all from P.Gmc. *wrakjan; Ger. Recke "renowned warrior, hero", Eng. wretch.). ». Faux. La forme voisine de <garcio> est attestée en latin. Si un tel effort n'est pas trop surhumain, tu pourrais nous fournir les attestation de l'ancien bas-francique de "wrakjon" et "wrakjo" — la bonne blague !
greg, those etymologies above are all accepted etymologies
do you dispute them?
<<D'abord An <rhyme> est un emprunt au français. >>
Is that so? Rhyme Rhyme\, n. [OE. ryme, rime, AS. r[=i]m number; akin to OHG. r[=i]m number, succession, series, G. reim rhyme. The modern sense is due to the influence of F. rime, which is of German origin, and originally the same word.] [The Old English spelling rime is becoming again common. See Note under Prime.] Rhyme Rhyme\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Rhymed;p. pr. & vb. n. Rhyming.] [OE. rimen, rymen, AS. r[=i]man to count: cf. F. rimer to rhyme. See Rhyme, n.] Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. <<Fr <rincer> est à rapprocher de La <recentiare>. Mais surtout à rapprocher du piedmontais <arzenté>. et du ligure <arrûxentá>. >> The Etymological Dictionary of the French Language, by A. Brachet, and certified by the French Academie also cited the origin of 'rincer' as "hreinsa". Most other French sources I've seen also do the same, noting that 'rincer' first appeared in the northern-most areas of France on the coasts (Normandy) before speading to adjacent dialects =>standard French, which supports a Scandinavian origin. Only ENGLISH etymologies cite a MADE-UP word *recentiare (to satisfy internal English Latin-wanna-be delusions). Clearly false. <<Si un tel effort n'est pas trop surhumain, tu pourrais nous fournir les attestation de l'ancien bas-francique de "wrakjon" et "wrakjo" — la bonne blague ! >> Let me help you understand the nature of the Old French language--(since you assume yourself a position of being unlearned :\ the assumed Frankish for of the attested West germanic 'wrechio" was 'wrakjo', which through metathesis would easily have become 'warkio' (metathesis is quite common in germanic languages, English included cf. OE bridd > bird) From 'warkio' it is only a gu- for w- and k > c change to produce *guarcio, guarcion Webster says the related Germanic French word was only an influence on the native English word. (sigh)
<<Webster says the related Germanic French word was only an influence on the native English word.
>> For clarification, this line belongs under the section of Rhyme |