I came across a posting from 2007 discussing the relativity of Finnish and Hungarian (Magyar) languages. The historical information was interesting to read, being Finnish. However, there were some inaccuracies related to Saami people. Indigenous peple in the northern part of Finland and also Norway, Sweden and Russia are Saami people. Not Sami or Lapp. Lappland is the geographical area. There are about 600 Saami dialects, make note that one can not say that there are 600 Lapp dialects. The reseacrh into Finno-Uralian languages are continuing and as far as I know, the relativity if Finnish and Hungarian languages are diminishing, even to me there are no words that could be considered similar, this is excluding the grammar as I do not know Magyar grammar.
Finnish language origins and Saami people
Dear Hannu,
Wikipedia accepts both Saami, Sámi and Sami to be used in English. In Northern Sa(a)mi it would be sápmi (sámegiela). 'Lapp' means the same, but modern Saami often found it pejorative. If we claim that there are 600 Saami dialects, we have to make distinction between minor differences in neighbouring villages. Usually it is considered that there are at most 10 Saami languages, six of which have literary standard (Southern Saami, Lule Saami, Northern Saami, Inari Saami, Skolt Saami and Kildin Saami). All of these have a couple of dialects. Northern Saami is by far the biggest language, and it accounts for at least 85% of all Saami speakers. Usually Northern Saami is meant when examples of Saami language are given.
There are maybe 300 common words in Hungarian and Finnish some of which are rather easily recognizable: kéz = käsi (hand), víz = vesi (water), méz = mesi (nectar), méh = mehiläinen (bee), szarv = sarvi (horn), menni = mennä (go), kér = kerjätä (ask/beg), tud = tuntea (know), alatt = alla (under), hal = kala (fish), rak = rakentaa (put together/build) száz = sata (hundred). On the other hand, many can´t be detected without careful linguistic study: ház = kota (house/lapp tent), ön = säynävä (a fish species), ösz = syksy (autumn), fal = pato (wall/dam), három = kolme (three), fa = puu (tree), fej = pää (head).
Greetings from a fellow Finn!
Wikipedia accepts both Saami, Sámi and Sami to be used in English. In Northern Sa(a)mi it would be sápmi (sámegiela). 'Lapp' means the same, but modern Saami often found it pejorative. If we claim that there are 600 Saami dialects, we have to make distinction between minor differences in neighbouring villages. Usually it is considered that there are at most 10 Saami languages, six of which have literary standard (Southern Saami, Lule Saami, Northern Saami, Inari Saami, Skolt Saami and Kildin Saami). All of these have a couple of dialects. Northern Saami is by far the biggest language, and it accounts for at least 85% of all Saami speakers. Usually Northern Saami is meant when examples of Saami language are given.
There are maybe 300 common words in Hungarian and Finnish some of which are rather easily recognizable: kéz = käsi (hand), víz = vesi (water), méz = mesi (nectar), méh = mehiläinen (bee), szarv = sarvi (horn), menni = mennä (go), kér = kerjätä (ask/beg), tud = tuntea (know), alatt = alla (under), hal = kala (fish), rak = rakentaa (put together/build) száz = sata (hundred). On the other hand, many can´t be detected without careful linguistic study: ház = kota (house/lapp tent), ön = säynävä (a fish species), ösz = syksy (autumn), fal = pato (wall/dam), három = kolme (three), fa = puu (tree), fej = pää (head).
Greetings from a fellow Finn!
suomalainen Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:09 am GMT
There are maybe 300 common words in Hungarian and Finnish some of which are rather easily recognizable:
On the other hand, many can´t be detected without careful linguistic study:
Hungarian = Finnish = Hokkienese (in peh-oe-ji)
kéz = käsi (hand) = ke or ke-chhiu (someone uses the hand to put out something or a stick.)
víz = vesi (water) = ui or ui-chun (a kind of longboat)
méz = mesi (nectar) = bit (in Hokkienese the "m" and "b" can be exchanged sometimes.)
méh = mehiläinen (bee) = chhau-meh (grassgopper)
szarv = sarvi (horn) = sa (a person hears the talking from someone. the person uses tool to kill animal; pig, chicken etc.)
menni = mennä (go) = ban (slow, go slowly)
kér = kerjätä (ask/beg) = keh, toa-siann-keh, keh-keh-hau, keh-keh-kio (what are you talking about?)
tud = tuntea (know) = tu, sann-tu (someone give an answer or respond to you freely.)
alatt = alla (under) = e or ha (under)
hal = kala (fish) = ka-la (a species of sea fish.)
rak = rakentaa (put together/build) = tah (build the house, tent etc. some persons put together)
száz = sata (hundred) = chap-tann ("chap" is ten and "tann" is a unit of weight. chap-tann is mean hundred.)
ház = kota (house/lapp tent) = khou-thah (tent)
ön = säynävä (a fish species)
ösz = syksy (autumn) = sek-si ("sek" is mean the change of a phenomenon of a star in the sky of autume; as like as the calendar or timer, and "si-kui" in Hokkienese means farmers' harvest season, so sek-si may be explained the autumn.)
fal = pato (wall/dam) = thou-pe (dam)
három = kolme (three) = ko-be (a constellation; it can mean the three.)
fa = puu (tree) = hoat, pu (the "f" in Hokkienese is "h", hoat or "huat' = f + oat or "f + uat" which means grass grow in land, or leaves grow in the tree. "pu" means the seeds grow up through the surface of ground.)
fej = pää (head) = chhang-peh, chhang-peh-chhiu (a kind of tree; when people building the house, the woods of this tree is put on the top of house.)
There are maybe 300 common words in Hungarian and Finnish some of which are rather easily recognizable:
On the other hand, many can´t be detected without careful linguistic study:
Hungarian = Finnish = Hokkienese (in peh-oe-ji)
kéz = käsi (hand) = ke or ke-chhiu (someone uses the hand to put out something or a stick.)
víz = vesi (water) = ui or ui-chun (a kind of longboat)
méz = mesi (nectar) = bit (in Hokkienese the "m" and "b" can be exchanged sometimes.)
méh = mehiläinen (bee) = chhau-meh (grassgopper)
szarv = sarvi (horn) = sa (a person hears the talking from someone. the person uses tool to kill animal; pig, chicken etc.)
menni = mennä (go) = ban (slow, go slowly)
kér = kerjätä (ask/beg) = keh, toa-siann-keh, keh-keh-hau, keh-keh-kio (what are you talking about?)
tud = tuntea (know) = tu, sann-tu (someone give an answer or respond to you freely.)
alatt = alla (under) = e or ha (under)
hal = kala (fish) = ka-la (a species of sea fish.)
rak = rakentaa (put together/build) = tah (build the house, tent etc. some persons put together)
száz = sata (hundred) = chap-tann ("chap" is ten and "tann" is a unit of weight. chap-tann is mean hundred.)
ház = kota (house/lapp tent) = khou-thah (tent)
ön = säynävä (a fish species)
ösz = syksy (autumn) = sek-si ("sek" is mean the change of a phenomenon of a star in the sky of autume; as like as the calendar or timer, and "si-kui" in Hokkienese means farmers' harvest season, so sek-si may be explained the autumn.)
fal = pato (wall/dam) = thou-pe (dam)
három = kolme (three) = ko-be (a constellation; it can mean the three.)
fa = puu (tree) = hoat, pu (the "f" in Hokkienese is "h", hoat or "huat' = f + oat or "f + uat" which means grass grow in land, or leaves grow in the tree. "pu" means the seeds grow up through the surface of ground.)
fej = pää (head) = chhang-peh, chhang-peh-chhiu (a kind of tree; when people building the house, the woods of this tree is put on the top of house.)
Which language, between Finnish and Hungarian, is harder grammatically. I know they are quite similar from a grammatical point of view but I'd like to know more in this regard.
Thank you, mistrel, for your list of words that resemble more or less the Finnish and Hungarian counterparts. I have also learnt that there are funny coincidences between Finnish and Japanese: ei = ie (no), hammas = ha (tooth), lippu = kippu (ticket), keikari = haikara (dandy). As there are tens of thousands of words in a language, you can find more or less similar words between any two languages, especially if they happen to have somewhat similar sound system. However, in order to prove that certain languages are genetically related, we have to find a system of historical sound changes that explains the differences.
Dear Fak: it is not quite easy to say which of the two, Finnish or Hungarian, is harder grammatically. Consonant gradation when inflecting words in different noun cases / verb forms is a phenomen that exists in Finnish; in Hungarian, on the contrary, endings are added more mechanically. In this respect Hungarian is easier. Examples of consonant gradation in Finnish: katto - katot (roof -roofs), leuka - leuat (chin -chins), kampa - kammat (comb).
On the other hand, rules for word order are rather complicated in Hungarian, in Finnish word order is more simple and rather free. Hungarian has also separate verb endings when there is a definite object. I am not sure which language is on the whole more difficult - perhaps we should ask an outsider who has tried to learn both. (As my mother tongue is Finnish, my opinion can be biased).
Dear Fak: it is not quite easy to say which of the two, Finnish or Hungarian, is harder grammatically. Consonant gradation when inflecting words in different noun cases / verb forms is a phenomen that exists in Finnish; in Hungarian, on the contrary, endings are added more mechanically. In this respect Hungarian is easier. Examples of consonant gradation in Finnish: katto - katot (roof -roofs), leuka - leuat (chin -chins), kampa - kammat (comb).
On the other hand, rules for word order are rather complicated in Hungarian, in Finnish word order is more simple and rather free. Hungarian has also separate verb endings when there is a definite object. I am not sure which language is on the whole more difficult - perhaps we should ask an outsider who has tried to learn both. (As my mother tongue is Finnish, my opinion can be biased).
To: suomalainen,
> méh = mehiläinen (bee) = chhau-meh (grassgopper)
Hungarian: méh (bee ?)
Finnish: mehiläinen (bee)
Hokkienese: chhau-meh (grasshopper)
I guess that the original meaning of "méh" (in Hungarian) is just only mean the insects.
We can compare these words about insects in some languages:
Finnish: mehiläinen (bee)
Hokkienese: chhau-meh (grasshopper)
Cantonese: tong me (dragonfly)
> ösz = syksy (autumn) = sek-si ("sek" is mean the change of a phenomenon of a star in the sky of autume; as like as the calendar or timer, and "si-kui" in Hokkienese means farmers' harvest season, so sek-si may be explained the autumn.)
The "si-kui" in Hokkienese have two words which are pronounced in different tones:
1. farmers' harvest season, which is pronounce in the tone "si22"; si22 - kui21.
2. four seasons including the spring, summer, autumn and winter, which is pronounce in tone "si21"; si21 - kui21.
> fej = pää (head) = chhang-peh, chhang-peh-chhiu (a kind of tree; when people building the house, the woods of this tree is put on the top of house.)
chhang-peh or chhiunn-peh
chhang-peh-chhiu or chhiunn-peh-chhiu
(The pronunciations in different dialects of Hokkienese)
> méh = mehiläinen (bee) = chhau-meh (grassgopper)
Hungarian: méh (bee ?)
Finnish: mehiläinen (bee)
Hokkienese: chhau-meh (grasshopper)
I guess that the original meaning of "méh" (in Hungarian) is just only mean the insects.
We can compare these words about insects in some languages:
Finnish: mehiläinen (bee)
Hokkienese: chhau-meh (grasshopper)
Cantonese: tong me (dragonfly)
> ösz = syksy (autumn) = sek-si ("sek" is mean the change of a phenomenon of a star in the sky of autume; as like as the calendar or timer, and "si-kui" in Hokkienese means farmers' harvest season, so sek-si may be explained the autumn.)
The "si-kui" in Hokkienese have two words which are pronounced in different tones:
1. farmers' harvest season, which is pronounce in the tone "si22"; si22 - kui21.
2. four seasons including the spring, summer, autumn and winter, which is pronounce in tone "si21"; si21 - kui21.
> fej = pää (head) = chhang-peh, chhang-peh-chhiu (a kind of tree; when people building the house, the woods of this tree is put on the top of house.)
chhang-peh or chhiunn-peh
chhang-peh-chhiu or chhiunn-peh-chhiu
(The pronunciations in different dialects of Hokkienese)
Some words in Magyar belike and resemble certain words in the Korean language as well:
Magyar : Korean : English
en : nan : I
te : tangsin : you (sing)
on : no : you (sing)
ti : [tangsindul] : you (plur)
onok : noedul : you (plur)
nem : ani- : no/not
igem : ye : yes
nap : nal : day
so : sogum : salt
mennyiség : manun/mani : quantity, amount, many/much
apa : appa/aboji : father
anya : omoni/omma : mother
nonver : nuna/onni : sister
ocs : hyong : brother
hold : dal : moon
lyuk : kul : hole
non : yoja : woman
gyer(m)ek : aegi : child, baby
I realise this isn't scientific and many words can probably be ruled out, but I am not making any solid claims.
When coupled with how the Magyar language operates, though, it makes the similarity seem sore close
Magyar : Korean : English
en : nan : I
te : tangsin : you (sing)
on : no : you (sing)
ti : [tangsindul] : you (plur)
onok : noedul : you (plur)
nem : ani- : no/not
igem : ye : yes
nap : nal : day
so : sogum : salt
mennyiség : manun/mani : quantity, amount, many/much
apa : appa/aboji : father
anya : omoni/omma : mother
nonver : nuna/onni : sister
ocs : hyong : brother
hold : dal : moon
lyuk : kul : hole
non : yoja : woman
gyer(m)ek : aegi : child, baby
I realise this isn't scientific and many words can probably be ruled out, but I am not making any solid claims.
When coupled with how the Magyar language operates, though, it makes the similarity seem sore close
> Leasnam Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:54 pm GMT
English = Magyar = Korean = Hokkienese:
I = en = nan = lan (we)
yes = igem = ye = iah-si (yes)
day = nap = nal = na (stay for a short time or some days, home, forest)
salt = so = sogum = bi-sou (taste, seasoning)
father = apa = appa, aboji = a-pa, lau-pe (father)
mother = anya = omoni, omma = an-nia, lau-bu, bu-a (mother)
Korean: omoni, omma (mother)
Dutch: oma (grandmother)
Hokkienese: am-ma (grandmother)
sister = nonver = nuna, onni = nau-a (child), cha-bou nau-a (little girl)
brother = ocs = hyong = hiann, hiong (elder brother)
moon = hold = dal = hou (segment)
hole = lyuk = kul = lut (a person using a rope falling down into a water-well or a hole), khut (a hole on the ground)
woman = non = yoja = sin-lang (bride), sin-long (bridegroom), lang, long (people)
child, baby = gyer(m)ek = aegi = a-inn, a-enn (baby)
English = Magyar = Korean = Hokkienese:
I = en = nan = lan (we)
yes = igem = ye = iah-si (yes)
day = nap = nal = na (stay for a short time or some days, home, forest)
salt = so = sogum = bi-sou (taste, seasoning)
father = apa = appa, aboji = a-pa, lau-pe (father)
mother = anya = omoni, omma = an-nia, lau-bu, bu-a (mother)
Korean: omoni, omma (mother)
Dutch: oma (grandmother)
Hokkienese: am-ma (grandmother)
sister = nonver = nuna, onni = nau-a (child), cha-bou nau-a (little girl)
brother = ocs = hyong = hiann, hiong (elder brother)
moon = hold = dal = hou (segment)
hole = lyuk = kul = lut (a person using a rope falling down into a water-well or a hole), khut (a hole on the ground)
woman = non = yoja = sin-lang (bride), sin-long (bridegroom), lang, long (people)
child, baby = gyer(m)ek = aegi = a-inn, a-enn (baby)
One important difference between the Korean and Hokkienese comparisons is that the Korean similarities can be drawn from natural conclusions. They aren't forced. No one set out to *make* them apparent. The apparentness was observed casually.
And Korean words *do* have a ring of familiarity in regards to Magyar. The Korean language too. History also makes this probability (though an extremely distant one) possible. Koreans originated in Central Asia. Hungarians also originated in the parts of Central Asia.
The Hokkienese words on the other hand are forced, and they do not really match (they're stretches in regard to meaning [eg. 'nau-a' (child) for 'sister'; 'hou' "segment" for 'moon', ??? Those are wide stretches and unlikely cognates]
And Korean words *do* have a ring of familiarity in regards to Magyar. The Korean language too. History also makes this probability (though an extremely distant one) possible. Koreans originated in Central Asia. Hungarians also originated in the parts of Central Asia.
The Hokkienese words on the other hand are forced, and they do not really match (they're stretches in regard to meaning [eg. 'nau-a' (child) for 'sister'; 'hou' "segment" for 'moon', ??? Those are wide stretches and unlikely cognates]
> Koreans originated in Central Asia. Hungarians also originated in the parts of Central Asia.
The Hungarians were mostly composed by the Siberian tribes. The homeland of Siberians originated in the Far East and moved to Mongolia, then moved to Central Asia.
> The Hokkienese words on the other hand are forced, and they do not really match (they're stretches in regard to meaning [eg. 'nau-a' (child) for 'sister'; 'hou' "segment" for 'moon', ??? Those are wide stretches and unlikely cognates]
> nonver : nuna/onni : sister
Hokkienese / English:
nou, nou-ka / woman or sister
nau-a / child (in the old customs, the boys usually adopted the girl's names or titles by a lot of families.)
> hold : dal : moon
Hokkienese / English:
geh, goeh / moon
moan / full-circle moon
hou / semi-circle moon or segment
The Hungarians were mostly composed by the Siberian tribes. The homeland of Siberians originated in the Far East and moved to Mongolia, then moved to Central Asia.
> The Hokkienese words on the other hand are forced, and they do not really match (they're stretches in regard to meaning [eg. 'nau-a' (child) for 'sister'; 'hou' "segment" for 'moon', ??? Those are wide stretches and unlikely cognates]
> nonver : nuna/onni : sister
Hokkienese / English:
nou, nou-ka / woman or sister
nau-a / child (in the old customs, the boys usually adopted the girl's names or titles by a lot of families.)
> hold : dal : moon
Hokkienese / English:
geh, goeh / moon
moan / full-circle moon
hou / semi-circle moon or segment
No argument can be adequately given to substantiate a Hungarian-Hokkienese affinity.
Any proposed relationship would more likely be involving pure coincidence than actual historical fact.
Any proposed relationship would more likely be involving pure coincidence than actual historical fact.
> suomalainen Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:15 am GMT
> Finnish and Japanese:
> hammas = ha (tooth)
Hokkienese: ham (eat), hap (eat, chat freely)
> Finnish and Japanese:
> hammas = ha (tooth)
Hokkienese: ham (eat), hap (eat, chat freely)
suomalainen, Leasnam,
Finnish : Hokkienese
jalka (foot, leg) : kha (foot)
olenpa (I am) : lim-pe (I am), oh lim-pe (learn I am)
Finnish : Hokkienese
jalka (foot, leg) : kha (foot)
olenpa (I am) : lim-pe (I am), oh lim-pe (learn I am)
<<Finnish : Hokkienese
jalka (foot, leg) : kha (foot)
olenpa (I am) : lim-pe (I am), oh lim-pe (learn I am) >>
Please stop
This is beyond ridiculous
jalka (foot, leg) : kha (foot)
olenpa (I am) : lim-pe (I am), oh lim-pe (learn I am) >>
Please stop
This is beyond ridiculous