Chinese, a waste of time

>>At the beginning, the speech was in Mandarin Chinese, and the CNN guy could explain what was being said, then half way through the live broadcast, everything switched to dialect, and the reporter couldn't understand a word and was silent. It was embarrassing.<<

Coincidentally, because of the way most Chinese people (and overseas) have been educated, speaking multiple "dialects" (Mandarin) is more like rarity than a commonplace phenomenon. It's almost analogous to trying to seek someone who speaks multiple Romance/Germanic languages. Let's suppose I can do Mandarin for CNN. If in the middle of the way people speak anything other than Cantonese, I'd be silent too. And in fact, Cantonese rarely appears in PRC contexts. Officials who are Guangdong natives also speak Mandarin in such formal contexts. But of course, you can argue that it's always easier to find a speaker of Sicilian/Corsian/Piedmontese/Venetian/etc in Italy (forgot the names, but you guys know them) to interpret anything along with standard Italian than to hire a learner of standard Italian (and who also knows standard Italian only) instead.

And by such logic, of course it won't be surprising to see there won't be any sort of Cantonese interpreters whatsoever who aren't a native. Ethnic origin doesn't matter, but being a native does. That should be the same with any sort of minor languages. But even so, who needs non-Chinese anyway for Mandarin/Chinese/any sort of Chinese? Chinese learners won't in any way get the same jobs as Chinese natives. I could be the main host of a Chinese program instead of being the one who explains Chinese in the learner's language (let's say English). It should be the Anglophone host (not me) who explains to the Anglophone audience. If I were Jenny Zhu, like in her reality, I should also be speaking Chinese far more than English.

>>Chinese learners won't in any way get the same jobs as Chinese natives.<<

Supplement:
And hence, by this logic, I'll go on to say, on reflection, I think second language learners (in this sense, essentially a FOREIGN language since you're learning it as an adult or, anyway, with your native language first in your brain) have to face the reality that many natives aren't that friendly and helpful after all. They have their own life and, just as what people complain about some Chinese natives who are language rapists trying to force English on every foreigner... your life with Chinese/etc will be different from say my time with my native Chinese. It doesn't strike me as surprising anymore to see just how difficult and rare the chance is for me to practice my own foreign languages.

Here, I'm thinking of the short reflection of Krashen (1981) about the usual lack of caretaker speakers (Chinese who help you learn Chinese) and the not very friendly "native" environment (China). In practice, I could be a very bad native too if I see your mistakes and still don't try to correct you out of pure politeness (which is I think more serious among some Chinese gentlemen for cultural reasons). In fact, combined with the very (admittedly) difficulty of tones alone, I have to say foreigners, even given strong material support (some Anglophones have more money and time to travel to China, marry Chinese women, move to China, can teach English to sustain their life in China... so they usually have advantages over most Chinese learners of English in many ways), could be facing a rather hostile environment, although (I believe) Chinese natives are usually helpful.

I had wanted to expand my prose, but on second thought it sounds unnecessary. Let me say instead that, yeah, SLA is more or less similar in my learning English or your learning Chinese, but English is still far easier because you can get passive exposure more easily.. well than most if not all other languages, Chinese included.

Excuse the language, but what you've said is a load of bollocks.

It is EASIER for English people (or Americans, whatever) to learn Chinese than it is for the Chinese to learn English. That's why you'll find that on the whole, Chinese people speak English poorly (not all of them, but generally there's a strong accent and their grammar is terrible), whereas an English speaker who learns Chinese can, in the same amount of time, learn Chinese to a reasonable standard. I learn Chinese myself, and I speak to many Chinese people online, and although they can express themselves (albeit sometimes rather poorly), I often have to resort to speaking in Chinese in order to be understood.

Chinese grammar IS easy, Xie. There are no tenses, no noun genders, no verb conjugations. There is a fixed word order that is easy to learn. It's just a question of memorizing the various constructions.

The tones are not hard, they're very easy. They're only seen as hard because they're a new concept to Westerners, but imagine what the Chinese think when they're confronted with verb tenses, verb endings, verb agreements, articles, and the completely irregular pronunciation of the English language. It takes a short amount of time to learn the tones, and after that it's easy sailing. You do it automatically.

The writing system in Chinese is difficult, but if you keep at it at a steady pace, you just learn it. Just don't compare it to our alphabet, think of it as just another thing to remember when you learn a new word, and you'll be fine.

<< Actually, if English is your native language, it's almost impossibe to learn any another language. >>

Speak for yourself. English is a lot more complex a language than Chinese, so maybe that explains why we can learn more languages than they can. I'm learning French, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin Chinese, Lithuanian and Afrikaans (the last two on and off), and I'm not hiding behind my couch too scared to emerge. You're only setting yourself limits which you find impossible to break. Spend more time learning the languages than telling yourself how useless you are. This is sad.

I repeat: Chinese grammar is EASY (and I have more of a right to comment about this than native Chinese speakers, since I am a learner of the language, rather than a native speaker who takes it all for granted), the tones are easy once you get the hang of them, and the writing system, although certainly a challenge, can be learnt easily if you keep at it.

So, fellow native speakers of the English language: Don't listen to this demotivating crap, and remember that most well known polyglots are westerners. And if you think we can't learn Chinese, go to Youtube and type in Da Shan.

We're talking about ORDINARY people here, people who are not fascinated by languages, and who don't particularly have great passion to learn one. People who learn a language as a secondary tool to do something else, for whom the language is not the focus of their efforts.

How many people can go to university and come out fluent in Chinese if Chinese is NOT their major, i.e., only taking supplement courses?

<<The tones are not hard, they're very easy. They're only seen as hard because they're a new concept to Westerners, but imagine what the Chinese think when they're confronted with verb tenses, verb endings, verb agreements, articles, and the completely irregular pronunciation of the English language. It takes a short amount of time to learn the tones, and after that it's easy sailing. You do it automatically.>>

1. I've read complaints right here at Antimoon that some people simply can't hear at least one the the tones in Chinese. This must make it difficult to understand and (especially) speak Chinese.

2. If your goal is to learn basic English for communication, why bother with things like articles, tenses, plurals, and verb agreement, cases/genders in pronouns or other such "fluff"? As an English learner, you can get along just fine, in output mode, without them (although you might want to use things like am/is/are/was/were properly). You just have to be able to recognize certain irregular past forms and the inflected pronouns in input mode, since native speakers are going to use these.

"How many people can go to university and come out fluent in Chinese if Chinese is NOT their major, i.e., only taking supplement courses?"

What languages have you studied, a demotivator? You seem to know a little something.

"and remember that most well known polyglots are westerners."

We have good language courses now and before that, people were motivated to learn languages as missionaries, merchants, etc. We had books and grammars. I don't think this was common in Asia. Japan was shut off from most of the world except for some Dutch and Chinese traders for many years.

Is Chinese a waste of time? No, not if you are interested in it. Unlike a lot of pursuits, it's a skill you can take with you. You may have to leave behind your stamp collection, you may lose your paintings in a disaster, but what you learn and keep in your mind may help you get reestablished again. Learning languages isn't a waste of time even if only a hobby.

<< 1. I've read complaints right here at Antimoon that some people simply can't hear at least one the the tones in Chinese. This must make it difficult to understand and (especially) speak Chinese. >>

Maybe they are deaf (Just kidding). But seriously, if you know what you're listening for, then they're obvious.

<< 2. If your goal is to learn basic English for communication, why bother with things like articles, tenses, plurals, and verb agreement, cases/genders in pronouns or other such "fluff"? As an English learner, you can get along just fine, in output mode, without them (although you might want to use things like am/is/are/was/were properly). You just have to be able to recognize certain irregular past forms and the inflected pronouns in input mode, since native speakers are going to use these. >>

You might think you can communicate then, but people would see you as very stupid. You'd be laughed at. But sure, go ahead...

But when I learn Chinese, I try to learn all the rules that I need to be able to express myself correctly. There's no point in learning something badly - if you're going to learn something, may as well learn it well.

<< We have good language courses now and before that, people were motivated to learn languages as missionaries, merchants, etc. We had books and grammars. I don't think this was common in Asia. Japan was shut off from most of the world except for some Dutch and Chinese traders for many years. >>

I know, I wasn't trying to say that westerners are better, I was using it as a contrast to his claim that we can't learn Chinese to a high level.

"Maybe they are deaf (Just kidding). But seriously, if you know what you're listening for, then they're obvious."

How do you think about Chinese tones (Mandarin)?

K. T. Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:20 am GMT
How do you think about Chinese tones (Mandarin)?
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No doubt the tonal system of Mandarin is actually the easiest one among all tonal languages. That's to say, if one can't master the 4 tones of Mandarin, then it'll be rather difficult for him/her to master those of other Asian languages, such as Cantonese, Wunese, Minnanese, Thai, Vietnamese, and so on.

This post is dedicated to Sir Caspian:

>>It is EASIER for English people (or Americans, whatever) to learn Chinese than it is for the Chinese to learn English. That's why you'll find that on the whole, Chinese people speak English poorly<<

What I meant is that (or for the sake of argument only? I suspect) contrary to popular beliefs among many Chinese people, I suspect that Anglophones could be facing a less friendly acquisition environment than us Chinese. I have to say sorry that I didn't mention that English is shared by millions of immigrants, subject to millions of accents (native and non-native alike), and thus Anglophones could harbor better tolerance of accents. Since many of them don't know any Chinese either, they could be even more patient than Chinese natives... although I usually assume subjectively that Chinese speakers often prove to be far more patient than some others (such as the Germans). English is more flexible, I can say. Chinese and German could be lumped into the same category where, if you aren't competent enough, both Chinese and Germans switch to English very quickly.

The Chinese also have an idiom skin to the grass is greener on the other side. Our usual assumption is Chinese is far more difficult than English, although there's always the kind of dichotomy about just whether Chinese or English is more difficult for us. There can be no objective answer.

>>Chinese grammar IS easy, Xie. [...]

The tones are not hard, they're very easy. They're only seen as hard because they're a new concept to Westerners, [...] It takes a short amount of time to learn the tones, and after that it's easy sailing. You do it automatically. <<

Thanks for the compliment. Then I think you can help us Chinese people overseas with language barriers by promoting your claim to your local counterparts who know no Chinese at all. I don't like the fact that most people believe in the Chinese-is-hell-difficult superstition and the general negligence/prejudice/ignorance about this major language. If only there could be more people who honor my name, my culture, and my language in whatever way they can.

>>So, fellow native speakers of the English language: Don't listen to this demotivating crap, and remember that most well known polyglots are westerners. And if you think we can't learn Chinese, go to Youtube and type in Da Shan.<<

I'll go on to say that there's a third reason for you to promote Chinese. Chinese learners are RARE. It's not that I can't see them, I do, but it's that Da Shan has been overrated. I don't deny his near-native fluency, which is certainly great, but if we have to emphasize just how great he is, then I can deduce easily that Chinese is such a poor language that so few learners have so far succeeded. You don't see fluent and famous English speakers anymore, because there have already been so many ABCs, BBCs, and CBCs (all ethnic Chinese) who are already English speakers. But where is Chinese? I personally don't have any interests clashing with those of Chinese learners, and the more Chinese learners there are, it simply means I could have a better life with any foreigners anywhere since we understand each other better.

Da Shan has already been famous in my country for many years already, but so far I still haven't seen a lot more fluent speakers. If one day the fame of Da Shan disappears, it might well signify that Chinese is already popular enough that we won't need him. In another case, Cantonese is even more notorious (to me) for being so obscure and unknown worldwide. People usually know, if they know it exists, it is the second (if not third) dialect from China, but still most are completely ignorant. Personally, I don't consider it a lot of fun to go to just anywhere in the world and still can't find anyone speaking my language. Just think of what Kato Lomb (the Hungarian native who had been a hyperpolyglot) said about the linguistic radius of the Hungarians. I wrote already earlier that the Chinese people, up to now, in fact have the similar difficulty shared by the Hungarians. Both of us speak a very obscure language (theirs is even more) and very few people actually can speak to us in our language. This is unlucky.

Yeah, you can expect Chinese to expand almost non-stop from now onwards, and it's been on the rise already, though slowly, for the last 20 years or so with the gradual opening of China... and its own self-implied increasing "international status". But, at the moment, for a major language as such, I'm yet to meet a large enough number of competent Chinese learners I can speak to in Chinese instead of my, you know, crappy English. Happy is the Chinese guy who can date just any foreign girls in Chinese instead of English.

>>The Chinese also have an idiom skin to the grass is greener on the other side.<<

AKIN.

>>then I can deduce easily that Chinese is such a poor language that so few learners have so far succeeded<<

Not that Chinese is difficult (how can I say difficult if I'm in fact a native?), but that, maybe you wouldn't know since you aren't Chinese, some people, especially some white people, are so much against Chinese that they force everybody to speak English or the local language. I've heard of enough racism and linguistic prejudice and so on against me and my people. There have been numerous posters here who are this kind of bastards.

Well, when all is said and done, I won't find it surprising that more people (don't speak of morals, it's just all about business) start to learn Chinese, and eventually master Chinese, only for practical/economic reasons. When the Chinese display their economic and political power to the greatest extent, then Chinese would just be as attractive as English nowadays. Ideals can't move people. But money can. It's just a matter of time that younger people of my generation or the next start to learn Chinese, against the will of their parents who had been against this culture as a whole, which would be a joke.

Back in those days, 1870s Chinese for the Japanese, Chinese in all those years leading up to 1949, and after that, and before 1979, etc, who cared about Chinese? My culture has been notorious among my own people for being ultra-realistic/utilitarian. And we also know that it's human nature to hate poor people and envy rich people. Many Chinese might have felt the need to kowtow to anybody possible in those days of turmoil, but now, maybe you can see, some of us are already having our ego expanded by far. At least in my own worldview, most likely I can't be wrong in saying that, just because this culture has some of the longest traditions, at least it has its own particular sophisticated view of business, manners, culture, politics... I'm yet to discover another kind of traditions that attract me into reading humanity in such a way. So far, none.

>>No doubt the tonal system of Mandarin is actually the easiest one among all tonal languages. That's to say, if one can't master the 4 tones of Mandarin, then it'll be rather difficult for him/her to master those of other Asian languages, such as Cantonese, Wunese, Minnanese, Thai, Vietnamese, and so on.<<

Again, there are always downsides with fewer tones. I hate homophones.

Wow so many people are really hating on learning Chinese. I'm glad to see near the end of this thread some sensible people have joined in the conversation.

I am a structural engineer who has studied Chinese on the side for the past eight or so years and I can say with confidence that I am fluent. Learning languages takes time and patience. With dedication and enough time you can definitely become fluent in Chinese even as a hobby (that's what I did)

I landed my current job precisely because I was fluent in Chinese. Do you think the Chinese would prefer to work with someone who spoke some Chinese or just English? I can guarantee you they would rather work with someone who spoke at least some Chinese.

Find a good teacher or program and don't give up. Learning the characters is brutal but you have to do it to master the language and the system is so succint after you know it.

To back up what I say go to Amazon and type in Capturing Chinese. That would be my book written during my free time. I'm not a genius just dedicated.

Cheers

>>I landed my current job precisely because I was fluent in Chinese. Do you think the Chinese would prefer to work with someone who spoke some Chinese or just English? I can guarantee you they would rather work with someone who spoke at least some Chinese.<<

In fact, many people I've met prefer their native language most of the time.