Which has worse condition? Belgian Dutch or Afrikaans?

Baldewin   Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:09 pm GMT
Now some petit bourgeois claim they're "suppressed" because they only have to learn Dutch in Flanders....
notbelgian   Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:45 pm GMT
Opheylissem-Helecine,Steenkerke-Steenkerque,Waterloo,Dongelberg,Merdorp,Estaimbourg-Steenburg,Bevekom-Beauvechain, Schendermaal-Xhendremael were in Dutch (or Flemish) language area,now those settlements are in French language area.Perhaps Flemings are trying to stop francization of Flanders step by step?
PARISIEN   Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:00 pm GMT
<< France, Andorra and Turkey are the only European countries that have not yet signed the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities. >>

-- A double lie:
. Turkey is not European,
. Belgium hasn't signed either, because of Flemish opposition.

The big difference between France and Flanders is the following:
- In France, many people (including me) complain that education and culture activities aren't funded by the state, or insufficiently (and they're right to complain, minority languages like Breton or Occitan are very valuable legacies that need to be salvaged).
- In Belgian Flanders, it is FORBIDDEN fo fund French speaking culture activities.

In Flanders, running a business in another language than Dutch is punished by the law. This law is never applied against Arabic, English, Turkish, Hebrew etc. — only against French, which is supposed to be Belgium's second national language.

I know very well the situation there. I had relatives in Brasschaat -- they moved to Brussels years ago because their situation became unbearable. Don't be surprised if as a result Brussels and suburbs become increasingly francophone. It's a logical consequence of Flemish language dictatorship.

Flanders' authorities pretend that Flemish Francophones are recent immigrants, newcomers that should adapt to the makority language. But hey, there had been French speaking urban minorities for over thousand years in Ghent, Antwerp etc.!


<< PARISIEN. Throw your television out of your window. You know nothing about the situation in Belgium nor about Flanders. >>

-- Baldewin, French TV networks unfortunately NEVER report anything about Flemish linguistic violence.

----------------------------------------------------------

"The strangeness of Belgium
Nov 15th 2007, 11:21 by Charlemagne
THERE ARE many voices being raised in Belgium, just now, accusing foreign correspondents of exaggerating the political crisis caused by the failure of the country's politicians to form a new coalition government since elections in June.

Maybe this is true, but foreign observers surely have a right to feel that what passes for everyday politics in this country can look pretty strange, seen from the outside.

Today's newspapers announce that the interior minister of the Flemish regional government has, after months of enquiries and debate, decided not to confirm the appointment of three French-speaking mayors (or bourgmestres in the local jargon), because they broke strict laws imposing the default use of Dutch in the administration of all parts of Flanders.

The three mayoral candidates won election in heavily French-speaking communes (boroughs) near the capital city, Brussels. Though residents of six suburban boroughs have special bilingual language rights, there are strict legal limits on how and when French may be used. The three candidates who have been barred from taking up office undoubtedly broke those limits, and did so for political purposes. Their specific offence was to send out French-language polling cards at election time to French-language residents. According to an official circular sent out a few years ago by the Flemish regional government, all documents must be sent out in Dutch, unless a specific request is made for a French-language version.

So they are guilty of flouting the laws of the Flemish region which they wanted to serve as mayors. Fair enough. But, there is a broader, simpler point here. They may have broken Flemish language laws, but to an outsider, those laws look odd and disproportionate.

If you doubt this, just listen to these comments from the interior minister, Marino Keulen, explaining his decision to overturn the election of the three errant mayors. Leave to one side all the complex historical, legal and cultural arguments on both sides of the linguistic fight in Belgium. To outsiders, Mr Keulen sounds way over the top.

The guilty three, he tells today's La Libre Belgique:

"persisted in sending out electoral announcements in French for the national elections on June 10th, as they had done, just as illegally, for local and provincial elections in October 2006. They received a warning, which they have ignored, but worse, they undermined the [subsequent] administrative investigation. And as if that were not enough, they organised meetings of the local council in French, on October 22nd, again openly defying the language laws. This pitiful circus was an affront too far for their supervising authorities."

What can one say? The law is clear, they broke the law. But for anyone outside Belgium, it looks like a serious over-reaction to ban mayors on this basis. Imagine, for example, a mayoral candidate in the East End of London, sending out official election materials to voters in Bengali, and holding a single council meeting of his majority-immigrant councillors in Bengali. There would be a big stink, and maybe calls for his resignation. But not a sacking, ordered by a government minister. As a former resident of Washington DC, this blogger imagines there would be a row if a Hispanic city council member organised a Spanish-language council session in Columbia Heights, or Adams Morgan. But sacking a mayor? An affront too far?"
http://www.economist.com/blogs/certainideasofeurope/2007/11/the_strangeness_of_belgium

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The Wiki over 'Language_policy_in_France' is an extraordinary example of mere disinformation and urban legends. Icing on the cake, it mentions 'Charlie Hebdo', a ultra-leftist slander libel as a reliable source !
encore   Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:17 pm GMT
<<It's a logical consequence of Flemish language dictatorship. >>

Francization
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Francization or Gallicization (and informally Frenchification) is a process of cultural assimilation that gives a French character to a word, an ethnicity or a person.

Contents [hide]
1 French Colonial Empire
2 French Neocolonialism
3 Francization of ethnic minorities in France
4 Francization in Quebec
5 Francization of Brussels
6 Francization of the language
7 See also
8 References


[edit] French Colonial Empire

Lycée Albert Sarraut, it was a French high school in Hanoi, Vietnam during the French colonial period. The school offered high standard academic programmes with the explicit purpose to create foreigners who thought in French and like Frenchmen. Many well-known Vietnamese scholars and leaders graduated from Lycée Albert Sarraut.Main article: French colonial empire
[edit] French Neocolonialism
Main articles: Neocolonialism#Françafrique and Françafrique

Francization of ethnic minorities in France
Francization is also a designator applied to a number of ethnic assimilation policies implemented by French authorities in the 19th, 20th and 21th century. These policies aimed at imposing or maintaining the dominance of French language and culture by encouraging or compelling people of other ethnic groups to adopt the French language and culture, and to develop a French identity.

The term can be applied to the Francization of the German-speaking inhabitants of Alsace-Lorraine after this region was reannexed by France following the First World War, to the Flemings in French Flanders, or to the Occitans in Occitania, as well as to Bretons, Catalans, Corsicans and Basques.

[edit] Francization in Quebec
The Government of Quebec has francization policies intended to establish French as the primary language of business and commerce. All businesses are required to provide written communications and schedules in French, and may not make knowledge of a language other than French a condition of hiring unless this is justified by the nature of the duties. Businesses with more than fifty employees are required to register with the Quebec Office of the French language in order to become eligible for a francization certificate, which is granted if the linguistic requirements are met. If not, employers are required to adopt a francization programme, which includes having employees, especially ones in managerial positions, who do not speak French or whose grasp of French is weak attend French-language training.[1]

As part of the francization programme, the Quebec government provides free language courses for recent immigrants (from other countries or other provinces) who do not speak French or whose command of French is weak. The government also provides financial assistance for those who are unable to find employment due to being unable to speak French.[2]

Another aspect of francization in Quebec regards the quality of the French used in Quebec. The Quebec Office of the French language has, since its formation, undertaken to discourage anglicisms and to promote high standards of French language education in schools.[3]

Such francization programmes have been criticized as failures with the Montreal area becoming increasingly English-speaking and allophones continuing to favor English over French.[4]

Rates of francization may be established for any group by comparing the number of people who usually speak French to the total number of people in the minority language group. See Calvin Veltman's Language Shift in the United States (1983) for a discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francization
Baldewin   Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:28 pm GMT
<<Flanders' authorities pretend that Flemish Francophones are recent immigrants, newcomers that should adapt to the majority language. But hey, there had been French speaking urban minorities for over thousand years in Ghent, Antwerp etc.! >>
The facilities weren't meant as a true bilingualism, but as a transitional mode for people of the other community who were on the other side of the linguistic border.
Also, the duchy of Brabant always was officially Dutch-speaking, accept for the south which belongs to Walloon Brabant, administration was done in Dutch until late.. It's not because some French-speaking elite lived there we're talking about a historical minority. Also in the Netherlands there was French-speaking minority. Also in French Flanders were Dutch-speaking minorities and even entire towns! Also in Wallonia...
But we don't drive ourselves mad by linguistic nationalism nor historical romanticism and accept the current linguistic borders.

And yes, only in the periphery around Brussels (not entire Flanders) they have banned French-speaking cultural activities, because of some hot-headed activists (Voorpost, who loudly boycot them =/= public opinion). I was also against this. The fact remains the Flemish government still funds French-speaking schools, even though they're only a recent phenomenon . The French community doesn't even recognize the one Dutch-speaking school in Comines, but they DO complain Flemish want to control the French-speaking school! But the people over there at least know they're for from suppressed unlike some who are driven wild by their media (yes I follow the RTBf and read the papers, downright hate propaganda)!

<<In Flanders, running a business in another language than Dutch is punished by the law. This law is never applied against Arabic, English, Turkish, Hebrew etc. — only against French, which is supposed to be Belgium's second national language. >>

The reason is simple. The FDF wants to annex Flemish territory. This very party is treated like a normal party and is in cartel with the liberals and has the unofficial support from the other parties in their imperialism. They're used as the tool for radical claims other parties cannot allow themselves to.
Flemish realize this and that's what makes them so.

<<Baldewin, French TV networks unfortunately NEVER report anything about Flemish linguistic violence. >>

I know that two wrongs don't make one right, but there's also linguistic violence against Dutch-speaking in Brussels. But the fact remains some francophones seek to annex Flemish towns.
Baldewin   Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:55 pm GMT
Anyway, I do agree with you on the fact Flemings shouldn't complain about Francophone cultural activities in Flanders. There's also French Flemish plays although very scarcely and often performed by West Flemings) in French Flanders without all that annexation stuff attached to it. French Flemish consider themselves French, they even did when they spoke their dialect of Dutch.
I also find it a pity the Flemish Region didn't sign the charter for minority languages and cultures because of the Francophone presence. Because of that regional languages like Limburgian-Ripuarian, Brabantian, West Flemish and East Flemish aren't recognized by the Flemish Community, while Walloon, Picard, Champenois, Lorrein (Gaumais) Luxemburgish are by the French Community.
Very still, being recognized isn't enough for a language to be taught at school and doesn't mean much in practice. It's still a fact that, even you can't do without your own cultural Dachsprache (French for the South and Dutch for the North), the historical languages and their dialects remain interesting study material and therefore it's sad they aren't taught at school in the subjects of Dutch and French, or are even respected at all (fear of nationalism).
Mijn Opmerking   Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:02 am GMT
Afrikaans is one of the official languages and the undisputed lingua franca of South Africa. This means that Afrikaans is more widely spoken and understood in that country although English is preferred in business

Afrikaans is also the lingua franca and national language in Namibia but English is the only official language even though only a tiny fraction of the population speak and understand it.
rep   Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:30 am GMT
<< Comines-Warneton (Dutch: Komen-Waasten) is a Walloon municipality located in the Belgian province of Hainaut....Comines-Warneton is a municipality with language facilities for Dutch-speakers.>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comines-Warneton

I don't found any word in Dutch in official site of municipality with language facilities for Dutch speakers:
http://www.villedecomines-warneton.be/
fraz   Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:43 am GMT
Afrikaans is still alive and kicking in South Africa. The biggest selling magazine in that country is an Afrikaans publication. English is the preferred lingua franca for business but Afrikaans continues to thrive within the areas where it was traditionally spoken (it was never truly the national language of South Africa in any case).
kelly   Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:00 pm GMT
Flemish/Belgian Dutch is a beautiful form of Dutch (very mellow).
Belgian French is an ugly form of French (very harsh).
joolsey   Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:15 pm GMT
Hi Baldewin,

I was hoping you could give me some insight into Walloon linguistic history and identity please.

Is is safe to say that the primary Oil Romance for centuries in Franco-Belgian lands was Walloon (alongside pockets of Picard and Champenois)?

Obviously, Walloon must have been the dominant spoken language but that even for some time perhaps from (the 10th to 15th centuries?) was it also a literary language in the region (for court documents, mercantile charters etc)? I know that French must have made inroads from about the 15th century onwards- but primarily as a written language or as the courtly language or even as the lingua franca for dealing across Northern French territories (and various Oil zones). Would that be accurate?

But given that, aside from its cultural and literary gravitas, the French language held little political significance in the life of Wallonia thereafter (apart from stages in the Franco-Dutch wars of the late 17th century when France occupied parts of the Low Countries), how was it that the Walloons became so attached to the French language as an ethno-national marker of identity considering that:

- Walloon territories were largely exempt from (i) Louis XIV's accelaration of national centralisation (since Wallonia did not fall within France's boundaries)...and (ii) the French Revolutionaries' formalisation of said process

- Even more so than the lower-classes and rural dwellers of minority language zones within France, most Walloons surely reached at least the early 20th century being unable to speak French..

I just find it curious that Walloons do not have such an emotional investment in their own Oil language.
PARISIEN   Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:59 pm GMT
<< I know that French must have made inroads from about the 15th century onwards... >>

-- LOL... Wallonia wasn't any different from all other Oïl and Franco-Provençal regions: a common written standard was used since early 12th century from Aoste (in current day Italy) to Norman England, and from Bordeaux to Liège.


<< the French language held little political significance in the life of Wallonia thereafter >>

-- ROFL


<< how was it that the Walloons became so attached to the French language as an ethno-national marker of identity considering that:
- Walloon territories were largely exempt from (i) Louis XIV's accelaration of national centralisation (since Wallonia did not fall within France's boundaries)... >>

-- Utterly ridiculous. The self-standardization of French took place fully independently of any political power, at the same time in the Kingdom of France (which was a narrow stripe of land back then) as well as neighbouring francophone Duchies like Normandy, Brittany, Burgundy, Savoy etc.

Already in the 11th century, the "Chanson de Roland" can be seen as an early attempt to set up a trans-regional language that could be understood throughout the Oïl domain. The writer was certainly a Norman, but he wrote in French, not in Norman.
Baldewin   Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:13 pm GMT
I must admit I know little about the Walloon language nor about its history (except for basic info like 'around the 11th century it split from Old Picard and that it has undergone a lot of Dutch and German influences). I also know it was used in administration, especially among the citizens themselves. The high nobility used French though.
I like Walloon. They even have Middle Dutch words like 'loukî' meaning 'to look' which stems from Middle Dutch 'loeken', nowadays 'kijken' in Dutch.

Anyway, I also know concerning language, the Walloon movement declared French as the language of the Walloon. There were, however, factions within this movement for a bilingualism of Walloon and French like Fernand Cocq.
I have also consulted the website of the Rifondou Walon and they asked certain questions to random Walloon in some village. Most people don't mind if it's taught a little in school or used as literary language, but most don't want it as an official language (fear of nationalism).

Very still, bilingualism can work without isolationism. To see living examples you have to look at the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg. Over there children get their education in kindergarten to primary school in Luxembourgian, gradually switching to German. Their secondary education is in French (even though they speak a Germanic language which makes it even more interesting!). When a Luxembourger leaves school he has to be trilingual (actually quadralingual, because English is also compulsory) and almost everyone still has their Luxembourgian as mother tongue (which is a High German dialect made an official language). Even though they have declared their dialect a language, they're among the best polyglots you'll find in the whole BeNeLux.
opinion   Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:25 pm GMT
<<a common written standard was used since early 12th century from Aoste (in current day Italy) to Norman England, and from Bordeaux to Liège. >>
Old Germanic dialects ( perhaps Limburgish or Ripuarian) were used in Liège in 12th century. Liège was city of Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.
opinion   Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:52 pm GMT
<<When a Luxembourger leaves school he has to be trilingual (actually quadralingual, because English is also compulsory) and almost everyone still has their Luxembourgian as mother tongue (which is a High German dialect made an official language).>>
Why most of Belgian francophones are monolingual French only?