How did these words come to have /A:/ in RP? They both had /er/ in Middle English, didn't they? They have /3`/ in my accent, and most North American ones. Are there any exceptions?
clerk ["kl3`k]
derby ["d3`.bi]
clerk ["kl3`k]
derby ["d3`.bi]
Clerk, derby
I don't know how 'clerk' and 'derby' were pronounced in Middle English, but according to 19th century British grammarian, Alfred Ayres, the traditional pronunciation of 'e' before 'r', followed by another consonant, is /a:/ as in 'dark'. Thus, words like 'merchant', 'service', and 'servant' were pronounced as if written as 'marchant' (compare with Anglo-French 'marchaunt'), 'sarvice', and 'sarvant'. Modern RP English pronunciations of 'clerk', 'derby', 'Berkeley', and 'sergeant' (also in AmE) still retain this pronuncation rule.
Stephen Booth in his book on Shakespeare's sonnets states that Renaissance writers and printers used 'ar' and 'er' interchangeably, and early editions of the Oxford English Dictionary had words like 'partain', 'pert', 'pertake', and 'pertener' listed as variants of 'pertain', 'part', 'partake', and 'partner'.
Stephen Booth in his book on Shakespeare's sonnets states that Renaissance writers and printers used 'ar' and 'er' interchangeably, and early editions of the Oxford English Dictionary had words like 'partain', 'pert', 'pertake', and 'pertener' listed as variants of 'pertain', 'part', 'partake', and 'partner'.
Guest wrote: "W. Australians pronounce them that way.
clerk ["kl3:k]
derby ["d3:.bi]"
If by "W. Australians" you mean Western Australians, Guest, and if you mean that they pronounce clerk to rhyme with lurk, then you're very wrong, except perhaps for the young and ignorant. Those with any age or education rhyme clerk with bark. Listen to a grown-up.
Other Australians are amused (and appalled) by Western Australians rendering the name of their town Derby to rhyme with Kirby; the rest of us pronounce it Darby, for the reasons outlined above by Ian.
clerk ["kl3:k]
derby ["d3:.bi]"
If by "W. Australians" you mean Western Australians, Guest, and if you mean that they pronounce clerk to rhyme with lurk, then you're very wrong, except perhaps for the young and ignorant. Those with any age or education rhyme clerk with bark. Listen to a grown-up.
Other Australians are amused (and appalled) by Western Australians rendering the name of their town Derby to rhyme with Kirby; the rest of us pronounce it Darby, for the reasons outlined above by Ian.
>>If by "W. Australians" you mean Western Australians, Guest, and if you mean that they pronounce clerk to rhyme with lurk, then you're very wrong, except perhaps for the young and ignorant. Those with any age or education rhyme clerk with bark. Listen to a grown-up.<<
Obviously you're not including North American English here, as the *only* word of this sort that I have heard of a NAE-speaker having /A:/ in is "sergeant"...
Obviously you're not including North American English here, as the *only* word of this sort that I have heard of a NAE-speaker having /A:/ in is "sergeant"...
>>If by "W. Australians" you mean Western Australians, Guest, and if you mean that they pronounce clerk to rhyme with lurk, then you're very wrong, except perhaps for the young and ignorant. Those with any age or education rhyme clerk with bark. Listen to a grown-up. <<
I'm not wrong at all but you're just flame baiting by calling people ignorant for their dialectal differences in pronunciation.
It is well known that Western Australians have the variant pronunciation. It has nothing to do with age nor education; listen to a Western Australian of any generation or watch an AFL game with commentary in Western Australia.
>>Other Australians are amused (and appalled) by Western Australians rendering the name of their town Derby to rhyme with Kirby; the rest of us pronounce it Darby, for the reasons outlined above by Ian.<<
I don't know if it's due to historical reasons or an innovation but you can amuse yourself all you like quietly from your ivory tower. Western Australians do indeed pronounce their town Derby to rhyme with Kirby.
I'm not wrong at all but you're just flame baiting by calling people ignorant for their dialectal differences in pronunciation.
It is well known that Western Australians have the variant pronunciation. It has nothing to do with age nor education; listen to a Western Australian of any generation or watch an AFL game with commentary in Western Australia.
>>Other Australians are amused (and appalled) by Western Australians rendering the name of their town Derby to rhyme with Kirby; the rest of us pronounce it Darby, for the reasons outlined above by Ian.<<
I don't know if it's due to historical reasons or an innovation but you can amuse yourself all you like quietly from your ivory tower. Western Australians do indeed pronounce their town Derby to rhyme with Kirby.
I'll speak phonetically. My mate works as a finance clark (ph) in the City (London) and his idea of a good day out is to go to Epsom racecourse every June to see the world famous Darby (ph) classic race being run. As he lives in Epsom anyway it's on his doorstep so to speak.
An English eccentricity - if clerk is clark here in the UK why do we not call a stupid muppet a jark? Not that the word "jerk" is used much here anyway.......it's an "American thing" :-)
Now...coffee break over.....back to werk I go......
An English eccentricity - if clerk is clark here in the UK why do we not call a stupid muppet a jark? Not that the word "jerk" is used much here anyway.......it's an "American thing" :-)
Now...coffee break over.....back to werk I go......
PS: Is Derby (Darby) a nice place to visit? Apparently the residents of this English city of Derby get all wound up when Americans say they "we really like Durrrby but we liked Lie-sesterrrr bedderrrr" (meaning Leicester"). We so love them - bless! Let's hope they keep coming over.......it's fun to hear them over-stressing the "ham" bit in places like Nottingham, Birmingham and Gillingham, not to metion the way they pronounce my home city as Edinburrow.....I wonder what sort of dog's dinner we make over Albuquerque or Mississauga? :-)
Dead dog haggis? I don't get it.
There are plenty of other such words like "herd", "kerb", "herb", "fern", ....
There are plenty of other such words like "herd", "kerb", "herb", "fern", ....
>>Edinburrow<<
At least around these parts, people pronounce it more like "Edinburg" ["E:4I~:nbR=:g] or perhaps ["E:4I~:nbR=:k] - I myself have never heard somone say "Edinburrow" ["E:4I~:nbR=:o:].
>>it's fun to hear them over-stressing the "ham" bit in places like Nottingham, Birmingham and Gillingham, not to metion the way they pronounce my home city as Edinburrow.....<<
Seems like people are learning, though - it is common knowledge here these days that you pronounce "Worchester" as ["wUstR=:] and "Worchestershire" as ["wUstR=SR=:] (not how you'd actually pronounce such, but the analogous of such following the phonology of the dialect here).
At least around these parts, people pronounce it more like "Edinburg" ["E:4I~:nbR=:g] or perhaps ["E:4I~:nbR=:k] - I myself have never heard somone say "Edinburrow" ["E:4I~:nbR=:o:].
>>it's fun to hear them over-stressing the "ham" bit in places like Nottingham, Birmingham and Gillingham, not to metion the way they pronounce my home city as Edinburrow.....<<
Seems like people are learning, though - it is common knowledge here these days that you pronounce "Worchester" as ["wUstR=:] and "Worchestershire" as ["wUstR=SR=:] (not how you'd actually pronounce such, but the analogous of such following the phonology of the dialect here).
The vowel shift was evident in New England in the 18th Century. For instance "varmint" from "vermin" and "varsity" from "(uni)versity".
Travis:
Many thanks for your comments - well said.
Just one thing - it's Worcester and Worcestershire! No "h" after the "c"! Your pronuncialtion is spot on with "Wooster" and "Woostershire" (or Woostersheer in England). Same applies to Gloucester and Gloucestershire.
Endings of English place names such as "-cester" "-caster" "-chester" etc means that the places were originally founded around Roman fortifications during the Roman occupation of Britain - 54BC to 410AD. "Castra" - Latin - an encampment or fortification. There are such sites all over the place, especially in England and Southern Scotland....and all of Wales, I think. The Romans never went further into Scotland beyond the Antonine wall which more or less stretched from Glasgow to Edinburgh -roughly. North of that line the Scottish savages remained in total oblivion of the Roman centurions taking over further south. Bit like it is to this day....ha! Only joking....Inverness is very civilised.....I can attest to that.
Many thanks for your comments - well said.
Just one thing - it's Worcester and Worcestershire! No "h" after the "c"! Your pronuncialtion is spot on with "Wooster" and "Woostershire" (or Woostersheer in England). Same applies to Gloucester and Gloucestershire.
Endings of English place names such as "-cester" "-caster" "-chester" etc means that the places were originally founded around Roman fortifications during the Roman occupation of Britain - 54BC to 410AD. "Castra" - Latin - an encampment or fortification. There are such sites all over the place, especially in England and Southern Scotland....and all of Wales, I think. The Romans never went further into Scotland beyond the Antonine wall which more or less stretched from Glasgow to Edinburgh -roughly. North of that line the Scottish savages remained in total oblivion of the Roman centurions taking over further south. Bit like it is to this day....ha! Only joking....Inverness is very civilised.....I can attest to that.