Chinese characters and Egyptian hieroglyphs

Xie   Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:52 am GMT
It's just about typographical economy when writing by hand. English words form complete meanings through writing a few words, and since space is needed, you'd end up having to write a lot and need a lot of space. In a Russian case, which Chinese laymen of foreign languages would be startled, it would be needed to create additional huge blocks of letters for a monument or any construction works because a case marker is needed. In Chinese, you just have to get the "square" things right - the strokes, the shapes, the font...

When writing in Chinese, I can save space because 1) no "space" between words (so, the space button is on the keyboard is useless for Chinese) 2) several characters can convey meanings which would take up more words in English. Since it's hardly inflectional, there is no inflectional endings, and I can even skip some functional words for "handwriting" economy, like the possessive particle 的/之, aspect particle 了, and whenever possible, I can chop up many bisyllabic words into monosyllabic, as long as the message makes sense, like 已經 (already/done/partciple/schon) to 已 (the same thing; only the second character is dependent on this first).

I'm still doubtful whether Chinese has "no inflections" at all, because there are still lots of markers for indicating aspects, yes/no answers/questions and even objects. It just happens that Chinese has nothing as an ending (imagine additional strokes for declensions! how funny...), but some "amateur" Chinese I come across do claim Chinese has cases. One example would be an unknown case for: 把 sth/sb 給 transitive verb 了. (Where 給 may be optional in some cases, and sometimes you can just say "transitive verb + sth/sb" instead of using these markers. I sort of feel that another "subtle" difficulty, besides the (in)famous characters, would be our tradition of skipping things - 50 years ago, the strokes (simplified characters), and for centuries, syllables and even functional words (like pronouns).

When anyone sees the notes and wants to understand, s/he would probably speak the message in the mind by "expanding" 已 back to 已經 (which is used almost exclusively in spoken language anyway). So, things are very dependent on context, and we tend to be very frugal about words. Typographically speaking, my biased view is that English headlines cannot be simplified as much as Chinese ones are.

AFAIK, it seems that particles and any functional words (as opposed to content words) are separated from other words in pinyin.

If pinyin happened to replace hanzi totally in the distant future... I can't predict, but at least before that, I would bet the tones would be gone first.
Guest   Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:55 pm GMT
<< Development of computers and input methods have made Chinese less difficult to put in an information system.


See these discussions

Chinese characters WILL last
http://www.chinalanguage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2984&sid=98ebb4749b541bec93c5fcd3020d6c49
furrykef   Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:48 pm GMT
The question isn't whether they will last, but *how long* they will last. I strongly doubt that Chinese characters in their current form will still be used 1000 years in the future. But in the shorter term, like 100 years, it's likely enough that they will be.

From the article: "On the contrary, Chinese texts take up less space in a digital system, and less time to type. I'll tell you why."

This is a bit misleading. How much space Chinese text takes up depends on the encoding used, but this statement is probably correct for almost all Chinese text produced today. The "less time to type" claim is more specious. Many speakers of Mandarin simply type in pinyin and convert it to characters on the fly. Obviously, it would save time to just leave the text in pinyin, especially since you wouldn't have to find the right characters to express what you want to say. There are other, faster methods of typing in characters, but they are a bit difficult to learn, whether or not Chinese is your native language. Either way, Chinese characters again prove more cumbersome than phonetic writing.

- Kef
furrykef   Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:41 pm GMT
Also, I will note that the compactness of Chinese text data becomes less relevant when the text is compressed by a data compression algorithm. English (or pinyin) text will compress better than Chinese text, so after compression they will probably be about the same size.
Xie   Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:52 am GMT
I don't understand why. I posted something here and it seems to have been deleted. It's about typing Chinese. Am I mistaken? I hope I'm being paranoid this time.
Guest   Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:16 pm GMT
Post again, please.
furrykef   Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:23 pm GMT
Xie - I didn't see such a post... it might have been that you typed it but you forgot to press "submit", which I've had happen before, or maybe you did press submit and it gave you an error message and you didn't notice... so it's quite possible that you're paranoid. But then, with the mods here, you never know... *sighhh*

- Kef
Milton   Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:25 pm GMT
Southern Korea made a real progress with the move from Hanja to Hangul.
It has the highest literacy rate and literary production in the region.
Xie   Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:54 am GMT
Ok, simple. Someone may have said that Chinese aren't really monosyllabic. It's about words, not characters. I've only learnt one bisyllabic character in my life so far, which is that for nautical mile.

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B5%B7%E9%87%8C

If you can read Chinese, you can see that it isn't even used in PRC-style Chinese now. I learnt it when I was having math. lessons as a kid, and ... I never learnt in "China", hence my knowledge.

I also suspect that someone else's post might have gone, too. I think I'm really paranoid. I don't really know... but good, I've hence expanded my intended post a bit.
furrykef   Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:11 am GMT
I remember you saying that "nautical mile" bit, but that may have been in another thread... if so, I don't know where it is, though.

*sigh* I really hate this place. Why do I keep coming here?
Xie   Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:16 am GMT
Darn, I don't really know what is going on. Are "we" (or I only) being dreaming deja vu or paranoid?

I didn't say literally "nautical mile", but if you did see my "first" intended "word" or "character", you, Kef, know very well that I'm saying the same thing.

I'm giving its a second try. If that happens again, then, I don't know, my ISP or this forum posting system is to be blamed. I didn't say anything sensitive or offensive. I really hope I'm being paranoid.
Guest   Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:23 am GMT
I saw your previous post about the word meaning "nautical mile" as well. It must have been deleted.

BTW, is this character used in Chinese?

Xie   Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:26 am GMT
Yes, exactly. As a natural rule of my own, I won't bother to paste such stuff, because I assume no one knows this language.
Guest   Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:33 am GMT
What is more common? 海里 or 浬? They're pronounced the same?
Xie   Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:40 am GMT
OK, back to the topic. I intended to use this example to say something about the difficulty of reading Chinese, namely distinguishing between characters and words, something that natives do wrongly very frequently, to which the ambiguities of the Chinese language may be attributed. Chinese has no clear (written) boundary between characters and words, and so you can't know everything with the pinyin texts only.

Of course, most, if not all, function/grammatical words can be easily recognized in a pinyin text, like pronouns, modal/aspect particles (are they called so?). For ordinary nouns and proper nouns, you, too, should be able to know how they sound like with pinyin, but... the problem is, after all, that the characters have (long) become part of our culture and language. You can't really do away with all the characters when they have long taken root. Characters have been simplified to some extent, trying to ultimately realize Latinization, but the past efforts have turned out to be either only inconsistent (my POV; you can read a lot about simplified characters) or simply futile (refer to the sundry romanization schemes that lost ground).

If characters were to be done away, an awful lot of ambiguities would be first to be dealt with. My examples would be hard to understand, but let's think about it: in Mandarin, for example, when there are many homonyms, homographs, how are you going to eliminate the ambiguities without "butchering" a large proportion of the Chinese corpus? I could imagine that it could be as hard as doing away homonyms in English, but, after all, English only consists of 26 letters...