first of all Portuguese and Spanish are much more similar than other romance languages, this is a fact: grammatically, lexically and syntactically they're really close. European Portuguese has some difficult rules of pronunciation, for instance when they speak very fast, most of the atonic vowels drop and this makes European portuguese very hard to understand even for a Brazilian. In some ways American spanish may be easier to understand than European portuguese sometimes, even though they are two different languages. Try to listen to a Portoguese radio...
Whats the difference between portuguese and brazilian portu.
If Portuguese speakers understood Spanish easily and Spanish speakers had no prob understanding Portuguese, they would not be two separate languages but two dialects of "Portuñol" . But it is not the case. It is as simple as that.
Who told that Spanish speakers have no problem to understand Portuguese?
In fact they DO have them. Spoken European Portuguese is like German for a Spanish speaker's ears, that is, completely unintelligible. Things change with writen Portuguese, then you realize how close they are, but phonetics ruin these similarities almost completely.
In which way European Portuguese drop the tonic vowels? I don't get it.
Brazilian might have difficulties in understanding EP, actually more than any other Portuguese speaking country, because the language is simplified (perhaps for learning purposes and influenced by "foreign" communities?) But it's still the same language, you can find different accents everywhere.
Brazilian might have difficulties in understanding EP, actually more than any other Portuguese speaking country, because the language is simplified (perhaps for learning purposes and influenced by "foreign" communities?) But it's still the same language, you can find different accents everywhere.
The only way to get a decent answer about the differences between European and Brazilian Portuguese, is to have those native speakers gives their opinions. If you are a native Portuguese speaker, please tell us how it really is.
wrong, brazilians are gonna keep telling us their biased opinions, just make us think they speak their own language.
But they *do* speak their own language. There's that old saying, "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy." In other words, they're just different shades of the same thing, and the difference is mostly in the eye of the beholder.
- Kef
- Kef
Well, I'm European Portuguese but lived in Brazil for a few years and did my high school there.
At first, if I spoke normally, people wouldn't understand much and I had to repeat myself twice almost every time. It was a bit frustrating, I was very shy at the time and plus, I could understand everything they said, no problem.
Soon enough, I started to speak slower and changing the words' order around my sentences, which is the best thing to do, really. I had no problems communicating after the first week and even people who didn't know me thought that I was Brazilian!
But that's the catch... I tend to get accents very easily.. so much that when I went back to Portugal my Portuguese was a mess... for a European Portuguese standard, that is. I had relaxed too much... You can still notice it in my speech sometimes, but I try to be careful when writing.
Bottom line... if Brazilian have a hard time understanding European Portuguese that's because they use a simplified version with less words, less sounds and less verb conjugations... it's horrible to say it like this, but it's the truth. It's the same language though (they learn it the same way in school) and people will be able to communicate, of course.
I see people, perhaps Brazilian, saying otherwise. But quite frankly, I don't think that's something you should claim and be proud of.
At first, if I spoke normally, people wouldn't understand much and I had to repeat myself twice almost every time. It was a bit frustrating, I was very shy at the time and plus, I could understand everything they said, no problem.
Soon enough, I started to speak slower and changing the words' order around my sentences, which is the best thing to do, really. I had no problems communicating after the first week and even people who didn't know me thought that I was Brazilian!
But that's the catch... I tend to get accents very easily.. so much that when I went back to Portugal my Portuguese was a mess... for a European Portuguese standard, that is. I had relaxed too much... You can still notice it in my speech sometimes, but I try to be careful when writing.
Bottom line... if Brazilian have a hard time understanding European Portuguese that's because they use a simplified version with less words, less sounds and less verb conjugations... it's horrible to say it like this, but it's the truth. It's the same language though (they learn it the same way in school) and people will be able to communicate, of course.
I see people, perhaps Brazilian, saying otherwise. But quite frankly, I don't think that's something you should claim and be proud of.
Is Brazilian Portuguese with respect to Portuguese the same as Dutch and Afrikaans? Now Afrikaans is considered a distinct language because of pretty much the same: it was a variant of Dutch but it was heavily simplified to the point of becoming a different language. Probably Brazilian is becoming too simple to be considered Portuguese anymore.
if Brazilian have a hard time understanding European Portuguese that's because they use a simplified version with less words, less sounds and less verb conjugations
I don't agree . This is just another variant of the portuguese language There will be probably two different languages in a few decades or centuries. If you take a look to some brazilian grammars for foreigners you can already notice the differences. For instance Brazilian variant uses just 3 or 4 verbal forms for each tense:
eu canto
ele ela voce canta
nos cantamos
eles elas voces cantam
even nos cantamos is often replaced by a gente canta
I don't agree . This is just another variant of the portuguese language There will be probably two different languages in a few decades or centuries. If you take a look to some brazilian grammars for foreigners you can already notice the differences. For instance Brazilian variant uses just 3 or 4 verbal forms for each tense:
eu canto
ele ela voce canta
nos cantamos
eles elas voces cantam
even nos cantamos is often replaced by a gente canta
Portuguese soap operas need to be dubbed into Brazilian Portuguese to be shown on Brazilian Tv channels. And all Portuguese movies come subtitled into Brazilian Portuguese into Brazilian movie theaters.
According to encyclopedia Britannica Brazilians are more likely to understand Latin American Spanish speakers than Continental Portuguese speakers.
It's Continental Portuguese that changed during these 200 years since
Brazil got independent.
According to French linguist Galves, one cannot speak of one Portuguese grammars: Brazilian Portuguese and Continental Portuguese have two different/distinct grammars. Pronunciation and rhythm differences led to striking differences in syntax and word order. Like French, and unlike Spanish and Italian, Brazilian Portuguese tends to use subject pronouns all the time (Eu canto, eu gosto...instead of ''canto, gosto''...recent studies show that Brazilians use subject pronouns 99% of time, although this usage is not obligatory, it is of very high likehood/frequency...also, in Brazilian Portuguese, the inversion is not possible with direct transitive verbs: QUEM AMA VOCE^? means 1. Who loves you? in Brazilian Portuguese but 2. Whom do you love? in Continental Portuguese). The grammar differences are becoming more and more noticeable since Brazilian professors are letting go of old grammar rules used by nobody...Modern linguistics said Brazilian rules should be preferred in Brazil, Just like US usage is preferred in USA. Old/obsolete usage is fine in some aspects (like archaic literature or legalese), but not in everyday speech.
ENSAIOS SOBRE AS GRAMÁTICAS DO PORTUGUÊS, de Charlotte Maria Chambelland Galves. Campinas, SP, Ed. da UNICAMP, 2001. 280p.
Francesa, nascida em Dijon, na Borgonha, a autora aprendeu português em Portugal e vive no Brasil desde 1977, sendo professora na UNICAMP desde 1985. Em 11 artigos mostra que não se pode falar numa só gramática abrangendo a língua falada no Brasil e em Portugal. Apresenta a diferença e explicita as gramáticas que a produzem, quer no português europeu moderno, no português brasileiro e no português clássico.
further reading
Clitic-placement in the history of Brazilian Portuguese: a case of three-grammar competition
http://www.univ.trieste.it/digs9/pdf/carneiro&galves.pdf
Mary A. Kato (Campinas)
Generative grammar and variation theory: a happy marriage in the description of Brazilian Portuguese
http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin36/p36t2.htm
According to encyclopedia Britannica Brazilians are more likely to understand Latin American Spanish speakers than Continental Portuguese speakers.
It's Continental Portuguese that changed during these 200 years since
Brazil got independent.
According to French linguist Galves, one cannot speak of one Portuguese grammars: Brazilian Portuguese and Continental Portuguese have two different/distinct grammars. Pronunciation and rhythm differences led to striking differences in syntax and word order. Like French, and unlike Spanish and Italian, Brazilian Portuguese tends to use subject pronouns all the time (Eu canto, eu gosto...instead of ''canto, gosto''...recent studies show that Brazilians use subject pronouns 99% of time, although this usage is not obligatory, it is of very high likehood/frequency...also, in Brazilian Portuguese, the inversion is not possible with direct transitive verbs: QUEM AMA VOCE^? means 1. Who loves you? in Brazilian Portuguese but 2. Whom do you love? in Continental Portuguese). The grammar differences are becoming more and more noticeable since Brazilian professors are letting go of old grammar rules used by nobody...Modern linguistics said Brazilian rules should be preferred in Brazil, Just like US usage is preferred in USA. Old/obsolete usage is fine in some aspects (like archaic literature or legalese), but not in everyday speech.
ENSAIOS SOBRE AS GRAMÁTICAS DO PORTUGUÊS, de Charlotte Maria Chambelland Galves. Campinas, SP, Ed. da UNICAMP, 2001. 280p.
Francesa, nascida em Dijon, na Borgonha, a autora aprendeu português em Portugal e vive no Brasil desde 1977, sendo professora na UNICAMP desde 1985. Em 11 artigos mostra que não se pode falar numa só gramática abrangendo a língua falada no Brasil e em Portugal. Apresenta a diferença e explicita as gramáticas que a produzem, quer no português europeu moderno, no português brasileiro e no português clássico.
further reading
Clitic-placement in the history of Brazilian Portuguese: a case of three-grammar competition
http://www.univ.trieste.it/digs9/pdf/carneiro&galves.pdf
Mary A. Kato (Campinas)
Generative grammar and variation theory: a happy marriage in the description of Brazilian Portuguese
http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin36/p36t2.htm
''I see people, perhaps Brazilian, saying otherwise. But quite frankly, I don't think that's something you should claim and be proud of.''
Brazilians are proud of their way of using the language. They weren't able to chose the language imposed, but at least they have the liberty of using it the way they want. Brazilians will never ''obey the Lisbon-dictated grammar rules''. Get over it.
Just like in the US, no one would ever consider GOTTEN or I JUST ATE grammar mistakes. Americans are proud of their usage, because it's their, American. They could care less about what British people think of their usage.
Brazilians are proud of their way of using the language. They weren't able to chose the language imposed, but at least they have the liberty of using it the way they want. Brazilians will never ''obey the Lisbon-dictated grammar rules''. Get over it.
Just like in the US, no one would ever consider GOTTEN or I JUST ATE grammar mistakes. Americans are proud of their usage, because it's their, American. They could care less about what British people think of their usage.
According to French linguist Galves, one cannot speak of one Portuguese grammars: Brazilian Portuguese and Continental Portuguese have two different/distinct grammars. Pronunciation and rhythm differences led to striking differences in syntax and word order
I'm italian I've learnt European portuguese and I adore it but I totally agree with Milton. Nowadays we could talk about two different grammars even though they're very similar. Nevertheless some grammar aspects are more and more divergent, such as the use of personal pronouns, the verbal tenses, not to mention the rules of pronunciation. As I said in another post there will probably be two different languages in a few decades or centuries.
I'm italian I've learnt European portuguese and I adore it but I totally agree with Milton. Nowadays we could talk about two different grammars even though they're very similar. Nevertheless some grammar aspects are more and more divergent, such as the use of personal pronouns, the verbal tenses, not to mention the rules of pronunciation. As I said in another post there will probably be two different languages in a few decades or centuries.