Border Languages

David   Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:35 am GMT
Anyone know of any border languages? The only one I can think of right now is Portuñol. I'm sure there are plenty of others.
guest   Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:40 am GMT
<<Anyone know of any border languages?>>

Please, for the sake of the discussion, what is a "border Language"?
Guest   Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:08 am GMT
How about Spanglish?
David   Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:19 am GMT
Sorry,

I mean languages that have arisen due to constant contact between two related languages (e.g. Portunhol used on the border between Paraguay and Brazil), created to ease communication.
I would think that this would occur in places like the border between the Netherlands and Germany, Russia and Ukraine, Pakistan and India, etc.
K. T.   Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:25 am GMT
I think there is a language that uses Ukrainian grammar and mainly Russian vocabulary. This language starts with an "S" and has a "w" and an "e" and an "l", I think, but I don't remember exactly what it is called. I'm sure some smart person here will know. It means something like a bread with mixed grains.
K. T.   Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:38 am GMT
Okay, I was wrong about the letters. I must of seen it in Cyrillic and made a mistake with the "w" for the "zh". I was wrong about almost everything except the "S" and what it means. Sorry.

Here's the language info. Apparently it's called "Surzhyk".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk
Guest   Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:57 am GMT
Arabic dialects. Sort of.
Guest   Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:34 pm GMT
K. T.   Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:20 am GMT
There is a kind of mixed language (sorry, but it's Spanish and Portuguese again) in a small town straddling Portugal and Spain. It may have even been discussed here before. "Rionores" is what it's called I think, but there is probably a circumflex over the "e" in Portuguese and possibly an accent in Spanish on the "e", but I have seen it without it as well.
Guest2   Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:05 pm GMT
Portunhol and Surzhyk appear to be examples of "mixed languages," (although not all mixed languages are "border languages."):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_language

Some creoles (especially non-European based) may also have started as border languages.

Another question: Aren't there dialects (not mixed languages) that are closer to each other across borders than they are to the "standard" language of the capitals? (e.g., Netherlands/Germany, Northwest Italy/France, Norway/Sweden)
Earle   Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:52 pm GMT
Dialects are usually a continuum, rather than there being an abrupt change of dialect at the border. So, usually, but not always, villagers on each side of a border understand each other...
Guest   Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:28 am GMT
<<Another question: Aren't there dialects (not mixed languages) that are closer to each other across borders than they are to the "standard" language of the capitals? (e.g., Netherlands/Germany, Northwest Italy/France, Norway/Sweden)>>

This situation is actually quite rare, but there is a good instance in Dutch Limburg (the region around Maastricht, NL): the local dialect is some sort of Dutch that sounds quite close to German, while across the border the Germans speak a dialect they define as some kind of Dutchified German... and it's basically the same dialect on both sides.
Guest   Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:09 am GMT
Catalán in Andorra? A language in it's own right, but it is like an intermediary between Spanish and French.
Bakar Brennus   Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:18 am GMT
Luxemburgish