Brazilian Portuguese - is it a hard language?

Malibu Queen   Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:33 pm GMT
I think brazilian should leadership portuguese language because the big amount of portugues speakers nearly 200 millions in Brazil vs 10 millions in Portugal.


...

But people in Brazil learn grammar from Portugal, and all good jobs require a Portuguese language test (to test if you have mastered grammar from Lisbon or not), that's why a person who only writes and speaks Brazilian would never pass such a test, so only lousy jobs for most of them

for example if you write in the Brazilian Way... me chamo Valéria or bateram na porta they will give you two black negative points because grammar from Lisbon is required: Chamo-me Valéria, bateram à porta.

Brazilian usage (discriminated, considered low class): Me chamo, me lavo, me importo, me diga
Lisbon usage (promoted, considered ''prestigeous''): Chamo-me, lavo-me, importo-me, diga-me



All Brazilian schoolkids learn their Portuguese is wrong and teachers impose Lisbon grammar to them. According to these same teachers brazilian soap operas and songs are full of grammar mistakes and is a low class vernacular void of beauty of Camoões' tongue.

All Mexican soap operas use 100% perfect Mexican Spanish.
All Argentinian soap operas use 100% perfect Argentinian Spanish (yes, expressions like TE AMO A VOS are considered correct in Argentina and are used everywhere, just like AMO-VOS A VOCÊS in Portugal; yet all Brazilian professors are discriminating against the Brazilian usage: VOCÊ SABE QUE EU JÁ TE DISSE ISSO)...Go figure...

I wish Brazil voted for a two norms system (just like in Norway)....
Evinória   Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:45 pm GMT
Malibu


Bateram na Porta não está errado. O que acontece é que a Gramática do PT BR é SEMELHANTE ao PT PT. Mas não é igual.

Ela apenas normatiza, ou seja, cria normas de escrita:

O cachorro gosta de abanar o rabo. (Não está incorreto em PT BR)

O cão gosta de abanar o rabo. ( Está de acordo com gramática normativa, mas também não está incorreto)

Você entendeu?

Não significa, que temos que escrever em Português de Portugal quando vamos fazer algum teste. Escrevemos em Português do Brasil. O que está em jogo na verdade, é que a nossa gramática segue uma linha semelhante à portuguesa, por isso ainda não escrevemos como falamos. Mas também não escrevemos como os portugueses. Esse é o erro.

Mas creio que essa situação está mudando. O Acordo Ortográfico mostrou a força política do Brasil no Mundo atual: impôs a todos os Países lusófonos uma norma ortográfica que os aproxima do PT BR. Ou seja, infelizmente para você... Você está errado!
Kaeops   Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:47 pm GMT
If you read a Brazilian Magazine (like Veja) you will hardly recognize that it's a Brazilian text, the grammar is 99% Portuguese, and only an occasional Brazilian-based word can give it away...The same is true of Swiss Magazines like Die Weltwoche. But written Brazilian Portuguese and Written Swiss German are nothing like vernacular//colloquial/spoken Brazilian Portuguese and vernacular//colloquial/spoken Swiss German.

The only grammar that covers both colloquial and written style is
Mario Perini's - Modern Portuguese (a reference grammar)
http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300091557

It features both usages, for example
Sp.Br. = Spoken Brazilian;
Wr. = Written

I love you
Sp.Br: Te amo or Amo você
Wr: Amo-te or Amo-o

I just got home
Sp.Br: Acabei de chegar em casa
Wr: Acabo de chegar a casa

Get ready because I'm gonna tell you something
Sp.Br: Se prepara que eu vou te falar alguma coisa
Wr: Prepare-se que vou dizer-lhe algo.


Well worth a look
Nikitty   Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:40 pm GMT
SUBVERTING THE LANGUAGE OF METROPOLIS


As with any trickster-hero, the job of Mário de
Andrade’s Macunaíma is to transform the world
he sees. And his most signifcant transforma-
tion, one could argue, is to the language of the
metropolis. At the moment when Macunaíma
arrives in São Paulo, looking at all the things that
he had never seen before (automobiles, skyscrap-
ers, elevators, etc.) he explains them in the terms
of his own culture, and has therefore to be taught,
by the prostitutes, a new, powerful word:

The women told him laughing that the
sagüi monkey wasn’t a monkey at all, it
was called an elevator and was a machine.
From frst light they told him that all
those whistles shrieks sighs roars grunts
were not that at all, but were rather bells
klaxons hooters buzzers sirens, everything
was a machine. The brown jaguars were
not brown jaguars, they were called fords
hupmobiles chevrolets dodges and were
machines. The anteaters the will-o-the
wisps the inajá palms plumed with smoke
were really trucks trams trolley-buses illu-
minated billboards clocks headlights radios
motorcycles telephones mailboxes chim-
neys...they were machines and everything
in the city was just a machine! (34)

The machine, the prostitutes also explain to the
hero, is not a god nor a woman: it is made by
humans and moved by energy. Macunaíma, how-
ever, does not accept the explanation, and after a
week of abstinence from food and sex, a week in
which the only thing he does is to think (maqui-
nar is the expression used in Portuguese) about
the “bootless struggle of the children of manioc
against the machine,” he starts to feel:

That the machine must be a god over
which humans had no true control since
they had made no explainable Uiara3
of it,
but just a world reality. In all this turmoil,
his mind found a ray of light: “Humans
were machines and machines were
humans!” Macunaíma gave a great guf-
faw. He realized he was free again, and this
gave him a huge lift. (36)

In other words, Macunaíma discovers that the
only way to dominate the machine is by tell-
ing an etiological tale about it—to transform it
into “an explainable Uiara.” Free, Macunaíma
can then have his frst experience dominating
the machine: as he had always done in the region
of the Uraricoera, where he was born as a hero
and had become the “Emperor of the forest,” he
is able to dominate things by transforming them.
Thus he turns his brother Jiguê into the “tele-
phone-machine” and makes a phone call.
This narrative line continues in the chapter
“Carta pras Icamiabas,” the frst attempt by the
hero to show a command of written Portuguese.
This chapter is a parody of the conservative way
of writing that was cultivated by intellectuals such
as Rui Barbosa, Mário Barreto and “those who
wrote for Revista de Língua Portuguesa” (Lopez
1988, 427), as the author himself explains in the
letter to Raimundo de Moraes quoted above. In
his letter, Macunaíma describes São Paulo for the
beneft of the warrior women back home, the
Amazons or Icamiabas of the tribe of his dead
wife Ci. He touches on its geography, fauna, fora,
and people, adopting the colonialist tone used
by the chroniclers who wrote about Brazil. São
Paulo, “the strange place,” is described in terms
of “the known place” Amazonia. Thus, the odd
habits of the inhabitants of the big city have to be






explained to the Icamiabas through comparisons
with things and habits that they already know.
Part of the humor of the letter resides in the
fact that it parodies the chronicles by inverting
several of their references. Some of the daily
habits of the Paulistas, therefore, appear in the
text in a new light, strange and surprising. The
“Imperador do Mato Virgem” (Emperor of the
Virgin Forest, as Macunaíma is often called in
the novel) is depicted in the text as the colonizer,
the one who describes the absurdities found in
the “new world.” But the “colonizer” writes in
the language of the “colonized,” creating a rela-
tionship that is in itself absurd, and for that very
reason, comic. And it becomes yet more comic
because, as an outsider, Macunaíma is able to see
that such absurdity reproduces itself in the “two
languages” used by the urban Brazilians as they
try to express themselves, that is, the language of
the colonizer (Português de Camões, i.e. European
Portuguese) and that of the colonized (língua bár-
bara, i. e. Barbarian language). As he describes it,
Português de Camões, the written language, is com-
mitted to its own desire of separation from the
língua bárbara, the oral language. Macunaíma tries
in the letter to master the Português de Camões,
i.e. he tries to reaffrm the separation that he sees
as a strange cultural fact. Fortunately, however,
he is not successful: another source of humor in
the letter is the fact that while exaggerating the
Português de Camões, he also makes mistakes: mis-
used words, wrong agreements, bad spelling, etc.
Not only that: língua bárbara invades the text all
the time, through the presence of Tupi, as the
hero tries to explain to the icamiabas some facts
and things about São Paulo4
.
Macunaíma’s next attempt to master the lan-
guages of the metropolis happens in the chap-
ter that follows “Carta pras Icamiabas,” “Pauí-
Pódole.” While waiting for the villain to return to
the city, Macunaíma “took advantage of the delay
mastering the two languages of the land, spoken
Brazilian and written Portuguese. He now had
all the vocabulary.” (87) But one day, as he was
invited to buy a fower on the street, he real-
ized he did not know the word for “button hole”
(botoeira). Ashamed of showing his ignorance to
the girl who sold the fower, he introduced into
Portuguese a word from his own language: puíto
(anus). The word became current in the language,
and Macunaíma realized he had been smart in
creating it, and had scored a point over the lan-
guage he was struggling to learn: “At frst, our
hero was overwhelmed and was about to take it
badly, but then realised he was in fact quite smart.
Macunaíma gave a great guffaw” (82). But the
victory will never be recognized by the scientists,
the practitioners of the Língua de Camões:
The fact is that “puíto” had already
appeared in those learned journals that
dealt with both the spoken and the writ-
ten idiom, with much display of erudi-
tion. There was now a measure of agree-
ment that by the laws of catalepsy ellipsis
syncope metonymy metaphony metathesis
proclesis prothesis aphaerresis apocope
hapology popular etymology, by virtue of
all these laws, the word “buttonhole” had
been transmuted into the word “puito” via
an intermediary Latin word “rabanitius”
(buttonhole-rabanitius-puíto). Although
“rabanitius” had never actually been found
in any medieval document, the experts
swore it had certainly existed and had
been current in vulgar speech. (82-3)

The passage strongly satirizes etymology as
it was practiced by the writers of Revista de
Língua Portuguesa. The false origin attributed
by etymologists to the word puíto confrms the
Eurocentric tendencies of those who practiced
the Língua de Camões.


http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/pubs/brazil.amazonlit.sa.pdf
Joao   Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:39 pm GMT
"Bateram na Porta não está errado. O que acontece é que a Gramática do PT BR é SEMELHANTE ao PT PT. Mas não é igual.

Ela apenas normatiza, ou seja, cria normas de escrita:

O cachorro gosta de abanar o rabo. (Não está incorreto em PT BR)

O cão gosta de abanar o rabo. ( Está de acordo com gramática normativa, mas também não está incorreto)

Você entendeu?"

A gramativa é quase igual. As diferenças têm a ver com formas de se falar coloquialmente.
Em português daqui (de Portugal) também se pode colocar o pronome antes do verbo. Apenas é mais normal se o colocarmos depois.

Não conheço o acordo ortografico, mas penso que estipula também que se comece a escrever em Portugal palavras como: "fato", "correto", "ato", à brasileira. Pelo menos é assim que tenho lido em jornais portugueses ultimamente.
Também se pode continuar a escrever com a ortografia de Portugal: "facto", "correcto", "acto".

Vocês nem imaginam a controversia que os acordos provocam em Portugal: imensa gente a protestar que estamos a ser dominados pelo Brasil (lol).
Eu sou inteiramente a favor de acordos ortográficos, e que Portugal faça concessões porque o vosso português é muito mais importante no mundo que o nosso. A bem da manutenção de uma das linguas mais faladas no mundo.
Lusito   Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:24 pm GMT
Most courses in Europe offer Continental Portuguese. After all, when you master the grammar (which is identical) you can learn all the differences (slang, some expresions) in a day or two. No biggie.

Pronunciation differences are predictable and can be learned in 4-6 hours. After all, the phonology is the same (including stress and stressed vowels pronunciation, 99% stressed vowels are identical in both countries, which is so different from Italian where every city has it's own pronunciation of the stressed vowels (open/closed e/o thing))...
Lusito   Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:31 pm GMT
The only differences are
1. senhora (open o in Brazil, closed o in Portugal)
2. esôfago (closed o in Brazil, open o ''esófago'' in Portugal)
3. ô/ó words (this is obvious from the spelling: Amazônia in Brazil, Amazónia in Portugal) and so one.

The differences between Brazil and Portugal when it comes to phonology are fewer than differences between Standard Italian from Florence and Standard Italian from Rome (according to Canepari there are 5000 words that differ in pronunciation between standard pronunciation of Rome and Florence, for example ''sposa'' wife, open O in Florence, closed O in Rome, ''posto'' open O in Rome, closed O in Florence and so one, ''trenta'' open E in Rome, closed E in Florence)
Lusito   Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:35 pm GMT
Most Portuguese can imitate the Brazilian accent with ease:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0XzJllTmoM
guestini   Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:05 pm GMT
(according to Canepari there are 5000 words that differ in pronunciation between standard pronunciation of Rome and Florence, for example ''sposa'' wife, open O in Florence, closed O in Rome, ''posto'' open O in Rome, closed O in Florence and so one, ''trenta'' open E in Rome, closed E in Florence)

Wow, what a mess!
alexandrinne   Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:13 pm GMT
that's really important when learning Italian...Right...Nobody makes those differences. The Italians should really invent a new standard language, because this one is not working any more and nobody speaks it any longer.
eeuuian   Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:52 am GMT
<<(according to Canepari there are 5000 words that differ in pronunciation between standard pronunciation of Rome and Florence, for example ''sposa'' wife, open O in Florence, closed O in Rome, ''posto'' open O in Rome, closed O in Florence and so one, ''trenta'' open E in Rome, closed E in Florence)

Wow, what a mess! >>

5000 differences doesn't sound so bad. Comparing US English to UK English, aren't almost all words pronounced differently?
Joao   Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:11 am GMT
Anyway, back to the subject. How difficult will it be for a Slavic speaker (Polish)?

It's hard to say. Probably you may have a Latinized idea of Portuguese that won't fit the reality once you meet. The pronunciation has nothing to do with Spanish. So, be prepared.
Regarding the Brazilian form of Portuguese, the "d" is pronounced as "dj" (saudadje), the "L" at the end of a word as "u" (Brasiu, instead of Brasil).
The "e" at the end of a word is "i" (saudadji) unlike the European form which is silent.
I am no linguist, so I do not know the international phonetic characters, but there are Brazilians here who know it and would better help here instead of coming up with hatred against Portuguese.

Regarding the grammar, yeas there are slight differences in syntax comparing to the European form, but no big deal. The Portuguese put the object pronouns after the verbs while the Brazilians put them before the verbs. Brazilians make an extensive use of the gerund whereas the Portuguese tend to use the infinitive in cases where the gerund could be used.
You can easily learn both forms. Comparing to Slavic languages:
Portuguese has no case endings.
The verbs in Portuguese have lots and lots of tenses
This is normal in romance languages

As first lesson "tag" in Portuguese is "sim" and nie is "não". Nie pravda?

For learning, it might be more convenient to travel to Portugal as it's closer to Poland. In Lisbon, get in touch with Brazilians. There are many here, though not all of them might be nice people.

You can also try to see if in Brazil locals with Polish background may have associations that organize language courses. They're mostly in the state of Parana, isn't it? There might be a few who returned to Poland, check that out.
estagnação   Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:38 pm GMT
When talking about Brazilian Portuguese, people should have in mind that there is no such thing as a Brazilian Standard (outside the formal/written language, of course).

Some of the characteristics given here as "Brazilian" are actually dialectal inside Brazil (like /ti/ and /di/ palatalization).
While there probably are some common characteristics of the language spoken all over Brazil, the fact is that there are many Brazilian dialects, all with distinctive phonology, syntax and lexis. The most classic examples are the use of 'tu'/'você' and 'nós'/'a gente', pronunciation of the final/coda/plural -s, quality of vowels (north easterners tend to always open their vowels), use of articles in front of names, pronunciation of /r/ (it can be retroflex, trill, flap, uvular...), reduction of e/i and o/u (in many southern dialects it doesn't occur), palatalization of /ti/ and /di/ (also doesn't occur in many dialects), use of the subjunctive (I was appalled when I met some paulistas who didn't use the present subjunctive at all, while here everybody, including uneducated people, use it daily), use of the relative pronoun 'que' without propositions... we could go on and on. And if we started with lexical differences, then it could get very, very long.

People in Brazil outside of academia are normally completely blind to dialectal differences, they've grown up with the myth that in Brazil we all speak the same language, that there are no dialects.
ilio   Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:58 pm GMT
I don't know if this is true about Brazillian Portuguese specifically, but Portuguese is considered one of the more difficult Romance languages because of its extensive use of the subjunctive. It has more subjunctive tenses, at the colloquial level, than another other language in this family. Pronunciation is also a bit difficult, with more vowel sounds than Spanish or Italian, including nasal vowels.
That being said, as a Romance language, Brazillian Portuguese shouldn't be "hard". There are no cases, there are only two noun genders, and there are a wealth of resources out there. Check out the website sharedtalk.com, sometimes as many as half of the people in the chat room are Brazillians.
Evinória   Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:26 pm GMT
The question is about Brazilian Portuguese, then the answer is:

No, it is not difficult and it is easier then Portuguese from Portugal. Good luck!