If someone rolls out their list of languages, and counts swiss german separate to german, is this person full of it, or is it ok?
swiss german - separate language
If Luxembourgish, Alsatian and Dutch are classified as separate languages than Swiss German should too.
I guess there's sometimes uncertainty as to what's a dialect and what's a separate language. One example is Scots, which is usually, but not always, considered a separate language from English. Another example is North American English which is usually, but not always, considered to be just a bunch of dialects of "real" English.
Just an opinion: I've spent a lot of time in Switzerland, and I have mastered a scant amount of Schwyzertuutsch, and I would have to say it definitely qualifies as a distinct language from the standpoint that it is utterly unintelligible to any native speaker of standard German I have met. It has not only a very distinctive vocabulary, with some--but not a lot--of overlap with standard German, but it's grammatical structure is significantly different, as well. Add to this the trilled, "sing-song" intonation required to speak the language intelligibly, and you've got something quite different from standard German.
My best comparison would be this: Swiss German is about as different from standard German as English is from Dutch--some very similar, in some cases, identical words--but also a great deal of variance that completely prohibits mutual intelligibility.
Also, Swiss German has three or more distinct dialects--it's not one united language, even in a nation as small as Switzerland, due to the significant geographic separation between regions provided by the mountains.
Hope that is some help.
My best comparison would be this: Swiss German is about as different from standard German as English is from Dutch--some very similar, in some cases, identical words--but also a great deal of variance that completely prohibits mutual intelligibility.
Also, Swiss German has three or more distinct dialects--it's not one united language, even in a nation as small as Switzerland, due to the significant geographic separation between regions provided by the mountains.
Hope that is some help.
Are written German and written Swiss German also mutually unintelligible? (like English and Dutch)
Actually, Swiss German is a spoken language only--never really written. Swiss people read newspapers and books written in High German, as well as listening to most of their TV broadcasts in High German. Government documents are also in High German. Every schoolchild learns standard High German, yet Swiss people almost never use it for conversation.
I can't really think of ANY other language situation that closely parallels the one in German-speaking Switzerland.
I can't really think of ANY other language situation that closely parallels the one in German-speaking Switzerland.
Bubbanator, the linguistic situation in Switzerland is akin to that of most of the Arabic-speaking world. Each country and each region speaks its own "dialect" of Arabic, often mutually unintelligible with others, yet every child learns how to read and write in MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) and their dialects are never written. So it's a lot like Swiss German against Standard Hochdeutsch.
Thanks for that insight, Guest. My own experience is primarily with Germanic languages, so it's helpful to get the perspective of someone who has seen a similar situation in another language family.
How disparate are the various Arabic dialects? Are they 100% unintelligible to speakers of other dialects, or is there some overlap, but just not enough to make oneself clearly understood?
How disparate are the various Arabic dialects? Are they 100% unintelligible to speakers of other dialects, or is there some overlap, but just not enough to make oneself clearly understood?
Bubbanator, sorry I forgot to put my name when I spoke about Arabic and Swiss German.
Guest of Tuesday, January 29, 2008, the written, official version of Hochdeutsch is the standard language we all learn when we're talking about German, but don't be fooled by the name, it has nothing to do with sociolinguistic "highness" or superiority - it refers to the highlands of southern Germany as opposed to the flatter north (hence Plattdeutsch, or Low German.) Hochdeutsch itself has dozens of dialects from the Bavaria to Austria to Switzerland.
Bubbanator, many linguists consider the different dialects of Arabic to be languages in their own right. There is a dialect continuum from east to west, actually. A Syrian Arabic speaker will easily understand and be understood by a Lebanese. Yemeni and Saudi as well are very close. But as soon as you start selecting dialects which are spoken in geographically distant areas (say, Iraqi Arabic against Moroccan Arabic) they become entirely mutually unintelligible. But Moroccan and Algerian Arabic are indeed mutually intelligible. Due to movies, music, and pop culture, Egyptian Arabic (more specifically, the Cairene dialect) is the most widely understood dialect, however. So a Libyan or Chadi Arabic speaker will somewhat understand it due to exposure, but he will not be understood himself.
Although any educated Arabic speaker can switch to MSA to communicate with a speaker of another dialect, due it's a strange thing to do because MSA is not really anyone's native language. An Algerian and Syrian will often chose French or sometimes English instead of MSA, because it has a reputation for "being hard" and many other linguistic misconceptions. I have to say that the difference between MSA and any of the "dialects" is huge - think about it this way, MSA has grammatical cases, a dual number, very archaic grammatical features, a very unusual syntax, and has an exceedingly xenophobic (thus "pure") vocabulary. ALL of the dialects no longer decline nouns and adjectives, they've lost the dual number, they have greatly simplified grammar, a much more SVO European syntax, and loads of English and French (and Latin & Greek) loanwords.
I only speak, read, and write in MSA (because Arabic is not a native language for me, and I taught it to myself mostly with classes and self-instructional books,) and I've always gotten strange looks from native speakers, and sometimes, especially if they're not university-educated in MSA, they have a REALLY hard time speaking to me, and usually resort to their own dialect, which makes it nearly impossible for me to catch what they're saying sometimes. Although to be fair, they are always happy that a foreigner (I am East European!) has put the effort to learn their tongue. From the younger Arabs, I usually get a response akin to "OMG you learned Fus-Ha? [literary Arabic] you must be crazy!"
Guest of Tuesday, January 29, 2008, the written, official version of Hochdeutsch is the standard language we all learn when we're talking about German, but don't be fooled by the name, it has nothing to do with sociolinguistic "highness" or superiority - it refers to the highlands of southern Germany as opposed to the flatter north (hence Plattdeutsch, or Low German.) Hochdeutsch itself has dozens of dialects from the Bavaria to Austria to Switzerland.
Bubbanator, many linguists consider the different dialects of Arabic to be languages in their own right. There is a dialect continuum from east to west, actually. A Syrian Arabic speaker will easily understand and be understood by a Lebanese. Yemeni and Saudi as well are very close. But as soon as you start selecting dialects which are spoken in geographically distant areas (say, Iraqi Arabic against Moroccan Arabic) they become entirely mutually unintelligible. But Moroccan and Algerian Arabic are indeed mutually intelligible. Due to movies, music, and pop culture, Egyptian Arabic (more specifically, the Cairene dialect) is the most widely understood dialect, however. So a Libyan or Chadi Arabic speaker will somewhat understand it due to exposure, but he will not be understood himself.
Although any educated Arabic speaker can switch to MSA to communicate with a speaker of another dialect, due it's a strange thing to do because MSA is not really anyone's native language. An Algerian and Syrian will often chose French or sometimes English instead of MSA, because it has a reputation for "being hard" and many other linguistic misconceptions. I have to say that the difference between MSA and any of the "dialects" is huge - think about it this way, MSA has grammatical cases, a dual number, very archaic grammatical features, a very unusual syntax, and has an exceedingly xenophobic (thus "pure") vocabulary. ALL of the dialects no longer decline nouns and adjectives, they've lost the dual number, they have greatly simplified grammar, a much more SVO European syntax, and loads of English and French (and Latin & Greek) loanwords.
I only speak, read, and write in MSA (because Arabic is not a native language for me, and I taught it to myself mostly with classes and self-instructional books,) and I've always gotten strange looks from native speakers, and sometimes, especially if they're not university-educated in MSA, they have a REALLY hard time speaking to me, and usually resort to their own dialect, which makes it nearly impossible for me to catch what they're saying sometimes. Although to be fair, they are always happy that a foreigner (I am East European!) has put the effort to learn their tongue. From the younger Arabs, I usually get a response akin to "OMG you learned Fus-Ha? [literary Arabic] you must be crazy!"
Makras, Thanks for your imput about Arabic, as I had some questions my self. What you said made a lot of sense compared to my own experience. I don't speak Arabic, but I hang out with a few Arabic speakers where I live now. Whenever we are together the Egyptians speaking with the Jordanians will use both English and Arabic, and the Egyptains, Jordanians speaking with the Moroccans will always use English. I asked my Egyptian friend about MSA and he told me that he can understand it but it is difficult for him to speak/doesn't enjoy speaking it.
I've thought about learning some Arabic but the situation with the practical use of MSA and all the different dialects gives me doubts about how to go about it.
If I decide to study, would Egyptian Arabic be the most practical (throughout the Arab region and the world) over other dialects or MSA?
Judging from what Makras said and my experience, that might be the case, but I'd like to hear other opinons, recommendations.
I've thought about learning some Arabic but the situation with the practical use of MSA and all the different dialects gives me doubts about how to go about it.
If I decide to study, would Egyptian Arabic be the most practical (throughout the Arab region and the world) over other dialects or MSA?
Judging from what Makras said and my experience, that might be the case, but I'd like to hear other opinons, recommendations.
That's a tough choice. Without many (patient and willing) native speakers around you, it will be very hard for you to get the grasp of any of the Arabic dialects. And since the dialects aren't written generally, it will be hard for you to get any written material or textbooks for them.
My opinion would be to first understand the fundamentals of MSA, study it until you can read and understand the news which IS in MSA, then switch to Egyptian, Saudi, or Levantine Arabic. If you manage to pull that off, you'll be very well respected and you'll have tremendous ease understanding most forms of Arabic, and especially official documents, poetry, novels, books, movies, the news, laws, etc. For you to pick up more dialects will not be effortless, but at least it will be pleasant and rewarding.
My opinion would be to first understand the fundamentals of MSA, study it until you can read and understand the news which IS in MSA, then switch to Egyptian, Saudi, or Levantine Arabic. If you manage to pull that off, you'll be very well respected and you'll have tremendous ease understanding most forms of Arabic, and especially official documents, poetry, novels, books, movies, the news, laws, etc. For you to pick up more dialects will not be effortless, but at least it will be pleasant and rewarding.
Thanks. Good points. I forgot that Dialects use the MSA for writing. How does that work though, with the differnces in words? Yes, it is a tough choice given that it's situation. It's a shame that MSA isn't more widely used in common speech. Stange that it's used in media and whatnot but many people have difficulty with using it. I think it would be frustrating to learn MSA only to find that many people can't or don't want to speak it with you.
I dunno. If I study another foreign language seriously, maybe I'll choose another big one with more standardized speech.
I dunno. If I study another foreign language seriously, maybe I'll choose another big one with more standardized speech.
I ordered some years ago from Internet a textbook in "Schwyzertüütsch" as there was an exchange student from Switzerland in our school. It was amazing to notice that I couldn´t indeed understand hardly anything from the texts. Swiss German is much more difficult than Dutch for one who knows Standard German. On the other hand, perhaps my opinion is a little bit biazed because I know also English and Scandinavian, and Dutch is a kind of middle thing between German, Scandinavian and English. I showed my Schwyzertüütsch textbook to our exchange student, and he was amazed: he said he didn´t know that there was any stuff like that in Schwyzertüütsch.
<< Makras, Thanks for your imput about Arabic, as I had some questions my self. What you said made a lot of sense compared to my own experience. I don't speak Arabic, but I hang out with a few Arabic speakers where I live now. Whenever we are together the Egyptians speaking with the Jordanians will use both English and Arabic, and the Egyptains, Jordanians speaking with the Moroccans will always use English. I asked my Egyptian friend about MSA and he told me that he can understand it but it is difficult for him to speak/doesn't enjoy speaking it. >>
There you go again with your anti-French feeling. An Egyptian or a Syrian would tend to use French to facilitate communication between them not English and especially not Spanish. Very, very few Moroccans speak English and lots of Egyptians and Syrians speak fluent French.
There you go again with your anti-French feeling. An Egyptian or a Syrian would tend to use French to facilitate communication between them not English and especially not Spanish. Very, very few Moroccans speak English and lots of Egyptians and Syrians speak fluent French.