Monday, January 17, 2005, 02:13 GMT
Why doesn't everyone know that? The number of phonemes in English is not hard to pin down because there are 40 phonemes in the English language.
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There are 40 phonemes in the English language?
Monday, January 17, 2005, 02:13 GMT
Why doesn't everyone know that? The number of phonemes in English is not hard to pin down because there are 40 phonemes in the English language.
Monday, January 17, 2005, 02:31 GMT
First, everyone doesn't know that because there are only 26 letters in the English alphabet. Also, it differs by dialect.
Monday, January 17, 2005, 02:49 GMT
Many people pretend like the number of phonemes is hard to pin down but it's not. There are 40 phonemes in English.
Monday, January 17, 2005, 03:07 GMT
Let's have a list then.
Monday, January 17, 2005, 03:34 GMT
Here's the list of the phonemes in the English language,
1.[b]-big 2.[C]-chip 3.[d]-door 4.[D]-then 5.[f]-fish 6.[g]-goat 7.[h]-house 8.[j]-jack 9.[k]-cat, kit 10.[l]-lamp 11.[m]-map 12.[n]-near 13.[N]-sing 14.[p]-pear 15.[r]-road 16.[s]-state 17.[S]-sheep 17.[t]-truck 18.[v]-vent 19.[w]-wet 20.[y]-yet 21.[z]-zoo 22.[Z]-genre, vision, measure 23.[a]-cat 24.[e]-set 25.[i]-sit 26.[o]-corn, fork, four 27.[u]-cut, stuck, struck, front 28.[A]-plate 29.[E]-meet 30.[I]-fight 31.[O]-boat 32.[jU]-mute 33.[oo]-wood 34.[U]-food 35.[ou]-loud 36.[oi]-void 37.[A:]-shot, caught, father, balm, talk, tall, law, slaw, follow, dollar, car, hard, part, sharp 38.[3r']-bird, word, burn, fern 39.[..]-arrest, again, away, afire 40.[..r']-center, theater, realtor, inventor
Monday, January 17, 2005, 03:41 GMT
What about the 'ch' in loch, when said by someone from Scotland?
Monday, January 17, 2005, 04:10 GMT
The number of phonemes is not fixed, because it depends on where you place the threshold for a phoneme. Is the existence of a single minimal pair in the language sufficient to define the participating phones as phonemes? If so, the number of phonemes is very high indeed; if not, what's the minimum number of minimal pairs or sets that you require before you call a phone a phoneme?
For example, /T/ and /D/ participate in only a very small number of minimal pairs; /I/ and /i/ participate in many thousands of minimal pairs. Are the first pair of phones phonemes? The second? Both? Neither? It depends on where you draw the line. One hears numbers ranging from 36 to 46 for the number of phonemes in English. In teaching or learning English, one can disregard the exact number and simply teach the potential phonemes that participate in the greatest number of minimal pairs or sets first, and then work down from there.
Monday, January 17, 2005, 04:19 GMT
''The number of phonemes is not fixed'' Says you.
There are 40 phonemes in English not 46 or 36.
Monday, January 17, 2005, 04:22 GMT
A phone doesn't even have to have minimal pairs in order to be a phoneme.
Tuesday, January 18, 2005, 06:04 GMT
One phone can't have minimal pairs. You need two to make a pair. That's why they call them "pairs".
Suppose you don't have to find minimal pairs in order for two phones to be different phonemes. This doesn't invalidate the converse. If you do find minimal pairs then you've shown the two phones to be different phonemes (supposing you've got enough, which depends on where you set the bar as Mxsmanic says). Dr Adam Brown; Associate Professor at the National Institute of Education, Singapore; dissargees with you (check the link below). Why don't you give us a reason to believe you over him? http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j27/fonemes.html Cable, you seem to be aware that there is another side of the argument but you make no attempt to counter it. You just state that there are 40 phonemes without properly backing the statement up. It's my impression that you're only here to provoke a fight. I mean, if you really were serious then why this ... "16.[s]-state "17.[S]-sheep "17.[t]-truck "18.[v]-vent"? There are 41 "phonemes" in your list. You claim that there are 40 phonemes. Canadian Adam asks for a list. You type one up but accidentally type "17" twice so you get to 39 you've got to bung another "phoneme" onto the list to make 40 ... "How about [..r']?" you think to yourself "That'll do." I'm guessing that if you hadn't typed "17" twice you'd be arguing that [..r'] is just [..] plus [r]. Of course, you'd still be overlooking one rather embarassaing detail. "/T/ and /D/ participate in only a very small number of minimal pairs", as Mxsmanic writes, but /S/ and /Z/ participate in even fewer. Why does your list include /D/, /S/ and /Z/ but not /T/? So if you count properly and include /T/ then your list becomes 42 phonemes long. How can we save you magic number, 40? Maybe we could say that number 2 is just a combination of the two number 17s, i.e. "chip" = /tSip/ "ship" = /Sip/ "tip" = /tip/ and say that /tS/ is just /t/ plus /S/. Then we could do the same for number 8, [j]-jack, i.e. say that /dZ/ is not a phoneme but just /d/ plus /Z/. Another trick you could play would be to take a hint from Mxsmanic and say that /S/ and /Z/ are the same phoneme and say the same for /T/ and /D/ (realise that this is not what he's saying). Oh, isn't the number of phonemes hard to pin down. There may be 40 phonemes in your accent (or should I say 41 ... or 42) but your list is no good for my accent. Take number 37, for example. There are three different vowels here in my accent (as in RP). /o/ shot, follow, dollar /o:/ caught, talk, tall, law, slaw /a:/ father, balm, car, hard, part, sharp (I'm using Antimoon's phonemic alphabet) The vowel /o:/ was already counted as number 26 but you've excluded /o/. This is not surprising because it doesn't exist in North American dialects though it is very much a phoneme in AusE, NZE, RP and many other dialects. As american nic says, "it differs by dialect." /o:/ caught, talk, tall, law, slaw, corn, fork, four Want some minimal pairs? /o/ hot, pot, cot, bomb, dot /a:/ heart, part, cart, balb, dart Okay, so for my accent you have to add /o/ but to offset this you can ignore number 40. [..r'] doesn't exist in my accent as I have a non-rhotic accent. This, however, brings me to my next point. There are phonemes in non-rhotic accents that don't exist in rhotic ones. These are the centring diphthongs (though sometimes they're realised as monophthongs). In RP there are three centring diphthongs: /e../, /i../ and /u../. /e../ where, there, care, fair, heir /i../ here, near, beer, idea /u../ tour, pure, mature Some dialects have a fourth: /o../. "The second example concerns pairs of words such as 'bored' and 'board'. In some British accents, there is a difference, the first being pronounced [bo..d] and the second [bo:d]." (This is from A. Brown's article. I've changed the notation and put single inverted commas where the original had italics.) I pronounce "fewer" and "pure" to rhyme so you might say that /u../ is not a phoneme in my accent but just /u:../ (or /u:w../) but /e../ and /i../ certainly exist. So there you go: two more phonemes to add to the list. What can be done? Perhaps we can ignore number 32 ([jU] or /ju:/ in Tom's alphabet, as in "ewe", "mute"). We considered saying that /tS/ and /dZ/ were just /t/ and /d/ plus /S/ and /Z/. We could similarly say that /ju:/ is just /j/ plus /u:/. Indeed the later seems a more obvious thing to do that to than the former. But this still leaves us with too many. Anyway, let's answer the question first posed. Q) Why doesn't everyone know that there are 40 phonemes in the English language? A) Because it's not true.
Tuesday, January 18, 2005, 12:45 GMT
You mean in North American English.
My inventory of phonemes is different from yours and my count is, therefore, also different.
Tuesday, January 18, 2005, 23:31 GMT
Don't most people say the t in time different than the t in heart (say it outloud)? Plus, your [I] (at least for me) is just [ui], a dipthong. So it is not a phone. You are therefore wrong about your 40 number.
Wednesday, January 19, 2005, 01:38 GMT
Quote-''I'm guessing that if you hadn't typed "17" twice you'd be arguing that [..r'] is just [..] plus [r].''
Jim, the [..r'] in ''center'' is a single sound (a rhoticized version of [..]), not an [..] plus an [r]. For more information about that see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet_for_English Quote-''This is called an r-colored schwa. This is a single sound, not a sequence of schwa and r.''
Wednesday, January 19, 2005, 02:43 GMT
Sure it is, in rhotic accents. It doesn't exist for me. Either way, you've listed 41 "phonemes" which is quite funny.
Wednesday, January 19, 2005, 03:32 GMT
Okay I lost. There are 43 phonemes in my accent.
1.[b]-big 2.[C]-chip 3.[d]-door 4.[D]-then 5.[f]-fish 6.[g]-goat 7.[h]-house 8.[j]-jack 9.[k]-cat, kit 10.[l]-lamp 11.[m]-map 12.[n]-near 13.[N]-sing 14.[p]-pear 15.[r]-road 16.[s]-state 17.[S]-sheep 18.[t]-truck 19.[T]-think, thought, bath, path 20.[v]-vent 21.[w]-wet 22.[y]-yet 23.[z]-zoo 24.[Z]-genre, vision, measure 25.[a]-cat 26.[e]-set 27.[i]-sit 28.[o]-corn, fork, four 29.[u]-cut, stuck, struck, front 30.[A]-plate 31.[E]-meet 32.[I]-fight 33.[O]-boat 34.[yU]-mute 35.[oo]-wood 36.[U]-food 37.[ou]-loud 38.[oi]-void 39.[A:]-shot, caught, father, balm, talk, tall, law, slaw, follow, dollar, car, hard, part, sharp 40.[3r']-bird, word, burn, fern 41.[..]-arrest, again, away, afire 42.[..r']-center, theater, realtor, inventor 43.[i..]-idea Quote-''/i../ here, near, beer, idea'' ''here'', ''near'' and ''beer'' do not have the [i..] sound in my accent but the [i] sound in ''bit''. [hir], [nir], [bir]. ''where, there, care, fair, heir'' all have the [e] sound in ''set''. [wer], [Ter], [ker], [fer], [er]. |