Portuguese and Spanish are the closest Romance languages

<Every variety of Spanish is distinct in its own right. Cuban Spanish is just one of the many varieties found in Latin America, even though it may not be viewed as prestigious. >

From which country would the prestigious variety be found then, is it in Spain? And if so which one as there are many dialects there also, not just the one. Personally I don't see Cuban spanish as being any better or worse than any other, and I'm not of Cuban lineage, it's simply different that's all. I wonder if this applies to the English language as well. Would British English be considered the prestigious dialect amongst learners?

In Brazilian Portuguese we'd say:

O que (que) você quer? = What do you want?
(inversion possible but it sounds dated: O que quer você?))

Quem (que) você quer? = Who(m) do you want?
(inversion not possible since QUEM QUER VOCÊ means WHO WANTS YOU?!)

Inversion is more common in Continental Portuguese:
Como se chama o senhor?

In Brazilian Portuguese we'd prefer: Como o senhor se chama?

É QUE is inserted in Colloquial CP: Como é que o senhor se chama?
QUE is inserted in Colloquial BP: Como que o senhor se chama?
(é que/que are not used in formal, written BP) meaning What is your name, sir?!

I wasn't implying that Cuban Spanish is worse than any other variety. I'm completely indifferent and not arrogant that way at all.
I should clarify that native Spanish speakers ourselves, naturally, have stigmas and stereotypes regarding Spanish varieities. Because of the tradewind and Andalusian tendency to aspirate 's' sounds, it is common (wrongfully) for some to look down upon it. The variety is not incorrect but just different, as each variety is. By the way I am referring to only non-educated speech. Each non-educated Spanish variety contains features which are looked down upon. Accordingly, the model for a pretigious variety should be educated speech, be it from Britian, America, in terms of English, or Cuba, Mexico, Peru, in terms of Spanish. It doesn't matter where it originates, just as long as it's educated.

>>JB<<

But, natural evolution of Spanish varieties can become educated. The common people (THE SO- CALLED UN-EDUCATED) can influence the grammatical features of a variety. It just takes a few generations of traditions to be past and that variety that was once common is now a language of the educated people. Just because people are common and un-educated doesn't mean they can influence a cultral language. If the common people (who passed on there African Influence rhythms) didn't use there "common language" to create musicals styles such as Salsa, Merengue, Cumbia, Bachata, Samba, Garifuna these styles of music wouldn't exist if people always used "EDUCATED STANDARD VARIETIES OF sPANISH AND pORTUGUESE." To me your statements sounded like those of a "PRETENTIOUS AND ELITIST IBERIAN." I'm sorry if you didn't mean to sound like that but truly that is the way your post sounded like to me.

JB,

I believe you're from North America. Which Poruguese variety would you say is viewed as "prestigious" in your neck of the woods?

I don't think anyone who is from North America could answer that question, Tomas, unless they were a native speaker of Portuguese, in which case their answer would most likely be affected by their nationality.

Brazilian Portuguese is obviously preferred in Brazil and Continental Portuguese has no prestige at all. In Portugal, many people prefer Brazilian Portuguese because they say it is more melodic, more beautiful, more vocalic. in Africa (Angola, Mozambique, Cabo Verde Islands, GUiné Bissau, Saint Thomas & the Prince) Continental usage is followed, but Brazilian Portuguese is present via music and satellite TV (TV GLOBO).

In East Timor, the norm used for the Continental Portuguese is Brazilian Portuguese since it is much easier to lear and many timorese need(ed) to re-learn Portuguese, so they chose the Brazilian Portuguse (Timor's president Gusmão like(d) it better)

Kess, what the heck do you mean that Continental Portuguese has no prestige at all. You are entitled to your opinion, but let's be clear...that is your opnion, your bias. I love the sound of Brazilian Portuguese, but the Portuguese language was born in Portugal, so please accord it some respect. Continental Portuguese is also one of the official languages of the European Union, and the Portuguese speaking African countries use the Continental variety as you rightly pointed out. But most importantly, Continental Portuguese is also beautiful in its own right. The Brazilian variety may be more musical, but Continental Portuguese sounds more poetic.

Kess wrote: "Continental Portuguese has no prestige at all..."

Your nick suits very well the opinion you have of european Portuguese, in case you chose it from the german word kess or keß (applied to disrespectful, cheeky, saucy children).

"In Portugal, many people prefer Brazilian Portuguese..."

The 'many people' you mean are likely to be Brazilians themselves living in Portugal.

Actually, Tomás, I am from Lima, Peru. Although I understand quite a bit of Portuguese, due to its proximity to Spanish, I don't speak it, nor do most people here, in case you didn't know.


"The common people (THE SO- CALLED UN-EDUCATED) can influence the grammatical features of a variety." Not in Spanish, unless you can provide me a specific example. Of course Spanish, as any language, has not remained fossilized. Nevertheless, the grammatical system of Spanish strongly continues to resemble the Vulgar Latin from which it is derived. Throughout the Middle Ages until present times, no specific group of people influenced the development of the language to significantly alter its grammatical structure. Even with the Moorish Arabs, who controlled Spain for centuries, Arabic influence in Spanish remained confined to vocabulary. Judeo-Spanish, the language of Sefardic Jews expelled under the Spanish inquisition in 1492, has a grammar extremely similar to Spanish albeit differences in vocabulary. This has proved true throughout the development of English as well. While French provided a whole host of vocabulary to the language, English grammar does not exhibit features of a Romance language.



As far as the statement regarding music, I don't see how education would prevent or inhibit people from expressing themselves musically. Do you honestly think that if somebody decided to educate his or herself he or she wouldn’t sing or dance? Descendents of Sephardic Jews, such as Sarah Aroeste, have created beautiful works of music by educating themselves about their language and their heritage. To say that Salsa, Meringue, or Flamenco wouldn’t have developed if the people remained illiterate is far-fetched and derogatory towards those people. On the contrary, many of our musicians, dancers, poets, and writers are some of the most educated people we have. Many of the 'common people' do speak an educated variety and a proud to do so; it’s an honor to learn about one’s language, culture and ancestry.

Juan

Juan, recuerde, ese hombre viene de america central, el lugar más conocido por tener demasiadas jergas e hispanohablantes mal educados. Desafortunadamente, hay hispanos que no quieren aprender ni hablar su idioma bien.

Hm... I wanted to express my opinion here, as I'm entitled to, but I also think I may cause a lot of distress because of that. My apologies come before all that.

I'm a journalist in Brazil, and used to be a Portuguese teacher. I can only tell by my own experience, so this doesn't count as "fact": we, in general, have WAY more trouble understanding spoken Italian than spoken Spanish, any Spanish (I mean "different countries" here). In fact, Spanish is so close to "brasileiro" that it's a common joke here to mix those two in a so-called "portunhol" (or "portuñol", as the other side would put it. And how to translate that? Spanguese? heh). Just to make it clear: I'm using "brasileiro" into quotes, just because I won't repeat "Brazilian Portuguese" or "português brasileiro" many times. And because I also think it should be the name of the language, but that's just me.

I can't tell for a fact if Spanish and Portuguese are the closest amongst Ibero-Romance languages. As Ana puts it, it's easier for her, and maybe for most Spanish speakers, to get Italian. I'm just trying to contribute with the other side of the question, which is Portuguese (and from Brazil, in this case).

I have never heard spoken Occitan, Catalan, Castilian or Ladino, but I once had the chance to read something in Galician (galego) and it was written - I am sorry for that, just an opinion - like a very funny Portuguese. I got interested in that language (or variation, or dialect, or...) after that, I'd like to listen to it some time and check if it also sounds like Portuguese.

And I agree that "brasileiro" sounds a lot more like Spanish than European Portuguese. It's kinda funny to also notice that people from Portugal understand "brasileiro" very well, and the opposite is not always true, although the difficulty is minimal. We pronounce the words more naturally, more like they are written, while Portuguese people carry a stronger accent that often changes the actual sounds the letters originally had in Portuguese. Yes, we often subtitle Portuguese TV insertions for this exact reason.

Just for the record: I don't know of Portuguese people being mistreated here in Brazil... They may be, I just don't know of any case. I know some Portuguese people living near me, they are very kind to me and the other way around; one of them is actually a close friend of mine, and another is married to my aunt and a great guy. In fact, I've HEARD cases of the opposite: Brazilians being seen as trash in Portugal. Well, if it's true, I can't deny we are, mostly... I just can't deny that... And I won't go on explaining things either. Just ask the guy from Sweden who said Brazilian immigrants near him are rude, etc. They (the others here) call it "a funny way of living"; I call it BS, loudness, extreme ignorance, bad music, a very shallow sense of humour, lack of respect, "untrustability" (if there's such a word) and all that. Why foreigners usually love that is beyond me... Maybe because they don't actually LIVE here with all that. Yes, I pretty much hate Carnaval LOL. And yes, I'd like very much to move, but I lack $ome $tuff and I don't know how well I'm gonna be received anywhere else, you know...

(There's lot of great music here. Try Tom Jobim, João Bosco, Brazilian rock from the 80s, maybe. Try any "chorinho", which is an older variation of good samba, or Uakti, an experimental group of instrumental music. Maybe even try some new acts under the Trama wing - Trama is a record company I don't like much, but it's sure interesting and has a great proposal. Now, Daniela Mercury, Tribalistas, Skank, Ivete Sangalo, Babado Novo, any pagode and the rest is absolute krapp for the really stupid masses we have here. You can easily compare it to Timberlake or Mariah Carey or any of those "very accessible", pre-formatted, over-imposed, formulaic issues).

And we're DEFINITELY not part of a "latino culture" imposed by the media. Brazil is mostly on its own, in that particular aspect.

BTW, the name of another Brazilian guy here is great! Boa escolha, parabéns aí, rapaz (ou moça)! "Leitch Kentch" is exactly how we pronounce it, exception being some Rio Grande do Sul, maybe.

>>Enrique<<

How dare assume that everybody in Central America are un-educated. Where do you come from and I wonder whether everybody from your country must have some superiority complex that your the best of the best of Latin America. By the way, I was EDUCATED in The United States and I have a Bachelors in International Studies. So please unless you have something interesting to say instead of ethnically insulting someone elses culture, do not talk on this forum.


>>JB<<

I think you took my comment out of context. I responded to the comment you made about "Un-educated speech being looked down upon" which I objected to. I was not insulting un-educated people for the way they talk. You have to realize that Castilian Spanish people usually look at American Spanish pronunciation as incorrect or wrong. We were not properly educated to use the th sound when we pronounce are C's. I'm sure that your commeny you made was made because I did not come across clear enough about my statements. I do still think that many musical styles that are in Latin America are influenced by tribal African rythms which to europeans of the time of colonization of the New World thought as "savage" or "un-educated". I was mearly taking the comment as a historical aspect.

I am still angry about the comment that racist bastard Enrique made.


>>Leitch Kentch<<

Leitch kentch......Leite Quente... Hot Milk in English.... what does that name mean????

Jgreco,

Yes, I agree Enrique's comment was out of place and wrong!
Where did you get your degree from?

Juan

Well, it means exactly that: hot milk.

In Portuguese, leite quente. Brazilians from the Southeast (Rio de Janeiro, Minas Gerais, São Paulo, Espírito Santo) and maybe others too pronounce it like "leitsh kentsh".

In the Northeast, it'd more like "lêiti kênti". And the Southern accent would be closer to the actual writing: they pronounce every letter there, "leite quente".

There are not a lot of words usually pronounced differently from the writing, at least in a "polished" manner. Another one is "muito" (it means "very"), which is commonly pronounced "muintu". All the others alike, "gratuito", "fortuito" and so on are pronounced almost as written, with the exception of a final "u" ("gratúitu").