No Bets, We Just Need to Know

guest   Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:18 pm GMT
Okay, I just thought of an adequate example for you Humble

"Does the applicant have any experience?"
"Does the applicant have any driving experience?"

'driving' here is a noun--like in 'driving school'--therefore 'driving experience' (i.e. 'experience driving', or 'experience <with> driving') is a compound noun

good so far?

we can extend this to
"Does the applicant have any truck driving experience?" = "Does the applicant have experience truck driving?" = "Does the applicant have experience driving trucks?"

knowing this, we can work backwards from the original sentence
"Does the applicant have experience utilizing the new technology?" = "Does the applicant have experience new technology utilizing?" = "Does the applicant have new technology utilizing experience?"

It sounds odd to our ears, because it's not how we would say it according to English usage, but *technically* it is correct. It is a grammatical one for one analogy. There is no difference syntactically between "truck driving" and "new technology utilizing" (save the added modifier 'new')
both are compond nouns.
Where I believe you may be mistaking it as a participle is in the fact that 'new technology utilizing' or 'truck driving' in a way modifies 'experience', but it is still a noun. In English, unlike in German, we do not force-fuse compound words into one unit. We use nouns to pseudo-modify other nouns (eg. class-room, business unit, insurance company, etc)
but I hope this will assist you in seeing why 'utilizing' is indeed a noun.
guest   Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:21 pm GMT
CORRECTION
<<good so far?

we can extend this to
"Does the applicant have any truck driving experience?" = "Does the applicant have experience truck driving?" = "Does the applicant have experience driving trucks?"
>>

That second sentence should read
"Does the applicant have any experience truck driving?"


left out 'any'
OP   Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:24 pm GMT
The person who originally posed these troubling questions really wanted to know if there is some way to know whether a gerund or an infinitive should follow a verb and what to call the phrase with "utilizing."
guest   Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:32 pm GMT
I would call the phrase with "utilizing" just what we collectively decided it was: a gerundive phrase used as an object complement

Here's what I found regarding gerund phrases--
GERUNDIVE PHRASES
Gerundive phrases may function in any way in which nouns may function: as subjects, objects, objects of a preposition, or even nouns functioning as adjectives (modifiers). Gerundive phrases may contain gerunds, adjectives, objects, adverbs or other main verb elements.
Example: Dad talked about winning the game.

Should a gerund or infinitive follow a verb?
Infinitives (i.e. supines or bare infinitives--without the 'to') follow verbs all the time (eg. 'I will go'). So too with full-infinitives (eg. 'I want to have a good time'), so yes there.
Gerunds? I think so (eg. 'I like thinking of her'; 'I thought smoking was not allowed').
Guest   Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:59 pm GMT
But what is the rule?

This is not possible. "Does the applicant have experience to utilize the technology?"

It won't work unless I add another "the" to the sentence.

"Does the applicant have the experience to utilize the technology?"

But now, the meaning has changed!

I do appreciate mentioning "bare infinitives".
guest   Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:22 pm GMT
<<This is not possible. "Does the applicant have experience to utilize the technology?" >>

This is possible, but it doesn't make much sense logically.

A better example would be:
"Does the applicant have authority to utilize the technology?"

"What is the rule?" Rule for converting gerunds to infinitives? I'm sorry, I do not understand what you're asking after...
Humble   Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:21 am GMT
Thank you for your patience, guest.
<"Does the applicant have any driving experience?" >
Yep, "driving" is indeed a gerund used as a modifier, the same way nouns are. But nouns in postpositions as modifiers or object complements?

I can't understand whether you support the idea I mentioned in my post
Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:09 am GMT - the preposition is omitted. If you do, the debate is over, it is a gerund.
2 Guest
Either gerunds or infinitives can follow these verbs:
1. Begin
2. Be afraid (but the meaning will be different)
3. Can’t stand
4. Cease
5. Continue
6. Dread
7. Hate
8. Intend
9. Like
10. Love
11. Prefer
12. Regret (inf. only in "I regret to say/inform" etc)
13. Remember (but the meaning will be different)
14. Start
15. Stop (but the meaning will be different)
16. Try (but the meaning will be different)

file:///D:/worldservice/learningenglish/index.shtml
OP   Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:52 pm GMT
Good list. Thanks.
Humble   Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:16 am GMT
You know, guests and OP, maybe
It’s a little bit me,
It’s a little bit you.

I’ve discovered there’s a creature called “half –gerund”.
The liquid dissolving no more substance is the proof of its saturation. – half -gerund.
The liquid dissolving no more substance is called a saturated liquid. – participle.

Duffley, Patrick J. - The English Gerund-participle BERKELEY INSIGHTS IN LINGUISTICS 30-06-2006 ˆ69.10
Half-gerund 17 (1)
Temporal Distinction between the Gerund-participle and the Infinitive 34 (1)
The Gerund-participle 34 (5)
Onlangs door u bekeken:
The English Gerund-participle (Duffley, Patrick J.)

PDF (310,5 KB)
guest   Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:34 pm GMT
If we had kept the correct participle ending as -ind/-end/-and, we wouldn't have all this confusion today.

Thanks Chaucer!