Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard

Xie,

Personally, I think it would be a good idea for most people to at least learn one other language. For Americans, it should probably be Spanish or French. For some people three languages would be better-a common language used in one's general region (in addition to one's own language)and a more international language.

(Do I hear Esperantists shouting in the background?)

<<Personally, I think it would be a good idea for most people to at least learn one other language. For Americans, it should probably be Spanish or French. For some people three languages would be better-a common language used in one's general region (in addition to one's own language)and a more international language. >>

But what is the point? The reason why so many Europeans are multilingual is that they actually use their foreign languages in everyday life, for their work and for entertainment. A native English speaker who doesn't work specifically in a language related job will basically have ZERO chance of such a thing happening. So any language learnt young will atrophy to the point of non-existence.

>>>For some people three languages would be better-a common language used in one's general region (in addition to one's own language)and a more international language.

That's an ideal. The worst hurdle, rather than getting to the intermediate stage and beyond, would actually be how to start. I see many would-be Japanophiles fail when coming across the hurdle. Very few people get pass the basics and move on with some decent command - thanks to ineffective class - or is class ineffective by nature?

I've used myself as a guinea pig to see how class could work after failing to learn in this way once. The result is disastrous. While I lose nothing for boosting my GPA, my classmates only receive gibberish, not input. Their accent is still terrible, only to be corrected repeatedly by me and the native-speaking teacher unconsciously. I shan't be promoting learning ideas here (like using some commercial programs and bilingual texts...), but... the main thing is that doesn't work at least for getting well grounded to read any text.

Among all my metaphors, I'd say learning anything, like Chinese, involves a huge reading project, and this is not to be done with a bunch of people whose interests differ from yours. If you happen to know a few friends who want to learn the same language, then it'd be nice to exchange materials... but I don't think it's good to learn TOGETHER in class where you are force-making output prematurely.

Who would actually teach you to read literature? Most likely literature class. But the second language learner can't attend such until they are fairly advanced. Then it's up to YOU to read people like Lu Xun (Chinese), Orwell and Kafka to boost your discourse knowledge...to my knowledge, there has been no class for bilingual texts. Class most likely wants you to pay, not to teach you...

In my world view, I can see you can't get round by NOT reading. Language class, at least those in my city, doesn't really offer input. This sitting is essentially no-no. I can then see why very few people do learn a "3rd" language - what to expect when they can't even learn Chinese (here: Mandarin) well? They don't really know how to get input, like from *some* podcast sites (which I LOVE), and say you can only learn Mandarin from natives personally, which is to say, language is property of native speakers and products of class, not something you can possess without paying a hefty price.

"There are a lot of Chinese in Japan. I met several when I lived there. In Yokohama there is a Chinatown. I don't know what Chinese language you'll find there, though. Of course, not every speaker of a given language is a good teacher for that language... "
K.T.- You're right when you say that. The problem is "how I'm gonna meet them" :) and even if I meet it won't be of any help if they speak in Cantonese, Hakka or any other dialect. By the way, the Chinese is the second biggest foreign population in Japan following the Koreans. The third biggest population is composed by the Brazilians but I haven't seen any for years...
In Kobe there's also a Chinatown close to my workplace. Maybe I'll try to hang out with some Chinese as I enjoy my "lamen". :)

"Koreans used to study Chinese characters, but Koreans have told me recently that Koreans in their twenties no longer have that background and usually only know Hangul."
Well, I've heard a lot about this but it seems they still learn the "Hanja", even though pretty much everything can be written in Hangul. I've read that about 1800 hanjas are still taught in South Korea but when I look at Korean newspapers I barely see them...But the characters are presents in Korean vocabulary such as "pyo" for ticket, which came from 票(piao) or "cha" for car, which I believe that came from 车(zhe).

In studying Korean I could see how many words changed phonetically until they were adapted to the Japanese language. Man, this language thingy is addictive!!!

Actually I was thinking about the Ramen idea...lol.

Are you studying Korean seriously? I'm playing around with it. I usually pre-learn a language for a year or two before I buckle down and learn it.
There are some detailed suggestions on how to learn Korean from Prof. "A" over at a site called "How-to-Learn-Any-Language". Perhaps you know about this site already.

I frankly can't follow anyone's personal method, but if you pop over there, maybe you'll find something helpful.

At least some things won't be completely new in Korean. Thanks to the on-yomi readings you'll be able to figure out or remember some Chinese-origin words in Korean without too much effort.

Does NHK still show Chinese lessons in the morning? Maybe you can tape them. You're probably too advanced for them, but you may pick up some songs, poems, or interviews.

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I met a number of Brazilians in Japan. Most of them seem to be Nisei or Sansei. On the other hand, I was in Tokyo, so even though Kobe has an international reputation, you may not have the same opportunites.
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Languages are very addictive. At least they are useful, so time spent learning them is not wasted-especially if you can help someone later on because of what you've learned.

Hi K.T.さん

Actually I was thinking about the Ramen idea...lol.
○I feel like doing it specially after work because I work close to the Chinatown in Kobe...Wanna join me? :)

Are you studying Korean seriously? I'm playing around with it. I usually pre-learn a language for a year or two before I buckle down and learn it.
There are some detailed suggestions on how to learn Korean from Prof. "A" over at a site called "How-to-Learn-Any-Language". Perhaps you know about this site already.
○I was serious about it 10 years ago but I guess I messed it up because I watched the NHK Chinese, Korean, Italian, Russian and French course at the same time for 1 year. I also taped all the courses and still keep them so I can study again. After the TV course I also did 6 months of radio course and used a book called "Korean through English", which I bought in Korea in 1998. I guess the foundation has been laid and I need to take my Korean to the next level.


"At least some things won't be completely new in Korean. Thanks to the on-yomi readings you'll be able to figure out or remember some Chinese-origin words in Korean without too much effort. "
Oh yeah. Many words are so obvious that I just couldn't believe such as Mumpo for grammar　（文法）, Shinmun for newspaper （新聞）, kantan for easy （簡単). It's no wonder that the Koreans come to Japan without knowing a word and become fluent in no time. Since Korean uses the SOV structure, it's much easier for people who speak Japanese

"Does NHK still show Chinese lessons in the morning? Maybe you can tape them. You're probably too advanced for them, but you may pick up some songs, poems, or interviews. "
Yes, NHK still has a lot of courses and recently started offering "Hindi", "Vietnamese", "Thai", "Turkish" and other exotic languages for people who like to travel. I love when my son watches the Hindi course and says "Namaste". It seems that he doesn't like Chinese, though...

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"I met a number of Brazilians in Japan. Most of them seem to be Nisei or Sansei. On the other hand, I was in Tokyo, so even though Kobe has an international reputation, you may not have the same opportunites. "

Where I live (Osaka) there aren't many Brazilians because most of them are concentrated in areas where there are many factories and that's not the case of Osaka. Since I'm not nikkei burajirujin neither work at factories it's difficult to spot a Brazilian.
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"Languages are very addictive. At least they are useful, so time spent learning them is not wasted-especially if you can help someone later on because of what you've learned."

Exactly!!! The best thing is when you can use the languages you've learned. I wish I had more Korean or Chinese friends so I could use more what I've studied.
Today I was on the train on my way back home and found out my French studied are starting to have effect: I was reading without using the dictionary!!! Let's hope I can do that with Russian, Swedish and Chinese pretty soon!!!

Cheers!!

>>>Are you studying Korean seriously? I'm playing around with it. I usually pre-learn a language for a year or two before I buckle down and learn it.

This is interesting. How? I can't wait to decipher a lot of things... for personal and cultural reasons, I find a year or two too long.... but well, I've been pre-learning French for 4+ months (or, dabbling).

I was serious about it 10 years ago but I guess I messed it up because I watched the NHK Chinese, Korean, Italian, Russian and French course at the same time for 1 year. I also taped all the courses and still keep them so I can study again. After the TV course I also did 6 months of radio course and used a book called "Korean through English", which I bought in Korea in 1998. I guess the foundation has been laid and I need to take my Korean to the next level.-J. C.

J. C. さん,

Man, is this familiar territory! lol.

I think a lot of people must do the same thing. I heard that they added Arabic, but it must be intoxicating to have all those other languages too!

I remember the Italian shows were so dull. At least "Girolamo" kicked it up a notch at times. He seemed to be very popular-quite a gaijin talent.
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I love when my son watches the Hindi course and says "Namaste". It seems that he doesn't like Chinese, though...-J. C.

Interesting. He has a preference already-I wonder if it is the language or the people presenting the language.
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This is interesting. How? I can't wait to decipher a lot of things... for personal and cultural reasons, I find a year or two too long.... but well, I've been pre-learning French for 4+ months (or, dabbling).-Xie

Xie, I know this would probably be too long for someone in their twenties, but since I have a profession and a family, this timetable works for me.

When I pre-learn a language, I listen to it and (hopefully) enjoy it. I just let my ear get accustomed to the sounds. Soon, I am hearing the sounds in my sleep or remembering them when I do other things.

This gives me an advantage the day I start to buckle down and study grammar. I don't have to puzzle over the sounds. I can also (big secret) learn multiple languages at a time this way.

I allow myself to repeat or not repeat the sounds. I don't believe it's necessary only to listen, not talk. I like to see how the sounds are placed.
Where are the sounds produced? Where do they resonate? If it's a tonal language, I think about the exact pitch and where the pitch goes in relation to the next sound. If it's a musical language like Ukrainian is, I will notate the melody if the speaker is especially song-like in his/her speaking. I think about these things without getting too bogged down by it all. It's a kind of driving curiosity for me, I guess.

This kind of like shadowing, though it's sometimes not when you say you listen only.

>>Where are the sounds produced? Where do they resonate? If it's a tonal language, I think about the exact pitch and where the pitch goes in relation to the next sound.

Again, I see the point of shadowing and just listening. The most direct way of knowing sounds is just to listen to them. I don't have any advantage to know the sounds of any X immediately. I must have quite a few discounts when learning Mandarin, but for many words whose last syllable tend to drop the tone, I'd just listen. There's not much to be 'learnt' about rules of sounds. As a matter of fact, pronunciation often neglected as one most important part.

Again, considering some articles elsewhere (which have been mentioned here...), I think the typical Western setting of lang. class just won't do it as nicely as how you and I would do. What is western? There could be different settings elsewhere, but at least I think it is the very one in my university, where people learn pronunciation using NOTES instead of recordings. To put it simply, sometimes I think the Chinese way could be even better, even though it almost ignores oral language (students may only look for exchange programs instead...). The Chinese way is, in my simplest, biased form, rote memorization and extensive reading, but almost without oral language. Though, since Chinese Chinese students are often very diligent, they could do them all, at least in the written.

I'm comparing them because the western setting to my knowledge is to make you 'relax' when you learn, and present both written and oral language so that you don't feel 'bored' (with bad jokes), but if pronunciation is still so much played down, I'd actually prefer pure written language (grammar) tuition. It doesn't make sense for students to speak with a horrible accent while claiming to have been learning for 1 year (2 semesters) with a very limited vocab base. You could see how ineffective the Chinese way is (and so boring, for me), but the 'Western' is not much better. The ultimate way is, just, the autodidactic way. Thanks to Prof. A., I'll never do it _partially_ anymore.

Chinese grammar is very boring,but the writing system is very intersting.

I think we have to consider that people possibly learn in different ways and learn differently at different ages. HK isn't the only area to stress rote memorization. Japan also does this. I think I have seen videos of instruction in various African nations who teach in this way. To me, listening to recordings is a kind of rote memorization except it seems almost effortless. It's like when I was a kid and listened to recordings of songs or stories over and over.

I think the autodidactic way is best for people who have already learned at least one foreign language and are self-motivated. In languages like Spanish where there are tons of materials, I wonder if adults who sit in classes are there to be spoon-fed or if they like the camaraderie.
Or maybe they hope the teacher has a secret syringe that will deliver the language at the end of the term.

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"Horrible Accents"
LOL! I've heard horrible accents in English from native speakers, but of course you mean non-native speakers. These students would do well to find tutors in phonics so they stop speaking the new language through the old language.

I've also wondered if people with "horrible" accents feel some sort of resistance to the language or the culture commonly associated with the language. They don't really, subconsciously, want to sound "British" or "American" or "French".

What's an example of a horrible accent in a native speaker of english?

<<What's an example of a horrible accent in a native speaker of english? >>

There's a thread here called something "can you understand this", that refers to a video where the speaker (El Loquatero, or something like that)has a fake? bad English accent.