foreign speakers myth DEBUNKED!

>>>As a result of acquiring my Osaka accent I've often heard is that "my face and my accent don't match" :) Specially because I'm black!!!hehehe
Bottom line, the problem in Japan, China or Korea (I visited there and still had people talking to me in English when I was talking in Korean)is the ASSUMPTION that foreigners don't speak their language.
Assumption is a word I can't separate from because even though a Brazilian I can't play soccer, don't like samba/carnival (I'm from RIO) and NEVER listen to Bossa...
Sorry from deviating from the subject but apart from the linguistic aspect,many people assume things about us based on nationality,looks, height (I'm 6.2 but can't play basketball), you name it.

Haha, then I'm afraid that could be the case also in the SAR. The main reason is speakers of national langs, instead of int'l langs, often assume people won't know their languages. If I end up in Europe as a tourist/student, I could also sound surprisingly fluent, considering my look and background. HK people don't usually speak English very well - well, the handover does take its toll - and are just as foreign as others of the same descent in the eyes of many others. My speculation is: imagine if I were that person in your case, without the understanding mind of the real me, that person of typical Napoleon stature just "can't" hear what you are saying, esp. if you tend to speak too fast.

>>I notice that (like anyone) he is more interested in some languages than others. I've been watching to see if he studied Hebrew. I noticed that he was interested in Arabic and languages that have some influence from Arabic.

Like what I heard, like university subjects, they are of different sorts and the more scholarly people tend to choose "languages of civilizations" rather than ordinary, modern ones. This is essentially a much more difficult path to "embark on", and I'm afraid it's pretty much limited to scholars of Arts subjects only. The difference between these polyglots are simply their areas of interest. I'm also into this scholarly path, but when "the Chinese are dealing with the problem of getting full" (this is on the national agenda, really), I do believe the paths are roughly twofold only: if you learn an ordinary, modern, and fairly popular language, like English, you would either go for a holistic (this is a formal word) approach - literature, other subjects you would want to read up about, and colloquial usage - or for a general approach without much scholarly stuff.

But, back to the topic, to prove your linguistic ability to ordinary native speakers, it's natural to consider your own socializing habits. With path (2), I'd need much more time for real interactions and virtually without the "luxury" of reading a lot of literature. Both Farber and Kaufmann have spent a lot time on real interactions with this (2) - diplomatic missions, business, making foreign friends... I'd really speculate how much socializing the Prof. would do with his huge "repertoire", since, as he said, he wouldn't watch a lot of TV but, rather, use languages more for his career. I do see the point of socializing, in any case, as long as you are learning a modern language, but what's the point if I can't even travel? (Yeah, I'm having problems getting full, at least financially) Some more serious Chinese guys were saying audiobooks are darn boring and "you" should listen more to songs and make more foreign friends (many of them were abroad as students) - but hey, even if you ask me, Xie the undergraduate, to practice any language I know with you, I won't really pick you up much on your accent. This (2) demands much more speaking and real interactions, and is almost something that only diplomats and rich tourists and whatnot can do.

But then, in my context: darn, I think, not to mention something as popular as German, English is also darn hard to learn if I only take this (2). If I want to study in an Anglophone country, I need, I don't know, maybe some 10 times the money I need in Germany or even any random Chinese city. A path (2) would be a catch-22 for me. I do think (1) would take precedence for budding students before they are ready/have the money to take (2).

>>>Stereotypes that tend to associate a "foreigner" with a person from the West and "foreign language" with English can be regarded as a significant factor in this contradiction.

I'd do the same if you meet me in person. As I said above, besides pragmatic and cultural presuppositions (this is linguistics), I personally just can't talk comfortably to any random foreign guys who are just a mile taller than I am. I see (not meet) loads of foreigners almost everyday at university, but I just won't lose that feeling. So, yeah, I should stand out as a more understanding person in a homogeneous cultural circle, but I'm still not used to that.

"@J.C.
Do you think the "gaijin" concept in Japan has more to do with American people than to other foreigners?
I get that impression sometimes. "
Zatsu-san: I believe the concept "gaijin" has totally to do with Americans because Japan was occupied by the Americans after WW2 and they were the first foreigners to enter the country after the "sakoku" (National seclusion) period. Because of that all foreigners are expected to be "amerikajin" and speak English (Many Brazilians complain because they can't speak English in most part).

"What in general surprises the Japanese more, a black or a white speaking Japanese?”
Guest: I believe a black surprises the Japanese more because most black people I've seen here are either musicians or soccer players and don't appear much on TV. However, recently there's a black dude from America who has taken Japan by storm called "Jero". Check it out and prepare to laugh!!!!
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=CwTFJ-Vwbgs

That's a first for me.

He's pretty dang good from what I know of Enka. I like his sound better than some Japanese singers who sing in this style.

"I'm with zatsu. Relatively homogeneous societies and/or relatively small languages produce the excitement effect."


Guest: After trying to reconsider my experiences in Asia I've come to the conclusion that the "excitement effect" is worse in Japan because there was a REAL isolation from the rest of the world which lingers in people's minds. As for China and Korea, even though I had some nasty experiences, some people really took the time to try to talk to me and that was really nice. Interesting about China is the fact the characters can be used to communicate "writing in the air" when one one messes up the tones or pronunciation. That was my biggest experience ever with foreign languages. There's no need for a dictionary!!!

"The original Guest even concluded that himself: "when the actual reason is that not many foreigners go to their country".
Well, I remember that after studying Swedish and Finnish (I believe there aren't many foreigners there and the languages aren't spoken by many)and having tried to use it with the natives, they didn't seem surprised at all and didn't expect me to speak any English. I guess Europeans are more open to languages and ethnicities than Asians.

"I see no need for in-deep sociolinguistic studies or for resentment."
Well, I just used my friend's theory to show that the problem exists and has been dealt with PROFESSIONALLY. I don't like the wikipedia or "I think so" fonts. If anyone wants to go deep in the subject there's a lot of studies on "foreigner talk", which is what happens to "gaijins" in Japan, Korea and China for instance. I wonder how are things in Thai, India, Laos and other countries.
I have no resentment about being treated like a fool sometimes. I just like to look at their surprised faces and have some fun :)

"I like his sound better than some Japanese singers who sing in this style."
Oh yeah. That's what I call "singing from your heart"! :)
Way to go Jero!!!

This one is really to see how the Japanese feel when someone is good in their language. My only worry is that JERO'S grandmother is Japanese and I believe people will try to use that as a REASON for Jero's fluency, which I TOTALLY disagree!!
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=RqtgJ5TJi8M&feature=related

Have fun!!

<<If I want to study in an Anglophone country, I need, I don't know, maybe some 10 times the money I need in Germany or even any random Chinese city. A path (2) would be a catch-22 for me. I do think (1) would take precedence for budding students before they are ready/have the money to take (2).>>

I don't know about other countries, but I don't think living in Germany is 10 times less expensive than in US, Canada or even UK.
Living in Germany can be really expensive depending, of course, on where you'll live.
Nowadays most foreigners visiting Europe find it very expensive in general.


<<I personally just can't talk comfortably to any random foreign guys who are just a mile taller than I am. I see (not meet) loads of foreigners almost everyday at university, but I just won't lose that feeling.>>

Hmm, think I was also like that. I was used to live my live as the "exchange student" and usually people came to me for talking and not the other way around, but I still (or because of that) found it hard to talk with foreign people at college when I was supposedly at home. A weird feeling.
Anyway, I then went to Sweden for studying and got over that, there were almost more foreigners than Swedes and it was really rewarding get to talk and live with people from all over the world!^^
In English, of course.

<<I believe the concept "gaijin" has totally to do with Americans because Japan was occupied by the Americans after WW2 and they were the first foreigners to enter the country after the "sakoku" (National seclusion) period. Because of that all foreigners are expected to be "amerikajin" and speak English (Many Brazilians complain because they can't speak English in most part). >>

Thanks for your explanation J.C.!
But does that mean Japanese people often start talking in English with foreigners?

<<As for China and Korea, even though I had some nasty experiences, some people really took the time to try to talk to me and that was really nice.>>

I've seen more foreigners in Korean TV than in Japanese TV and always thought it was a "more open" society, at least Seoul, but I was under the impression people in Japan were real helpful as well?

btw, do you know Becky or Marie?
I remembered them because, at least Becky, she was born and always grew up in Japan, right? But isn't she really "loud" for a Japanese, even if it's really part of her personality? Sometimes it feels she's "acting" foreign or something, but it might be just me.


Aha, Jero sings really well, doesn't he? (and I don't really like Enka music)
I was really surprised on the PV when he started singing, from his looks one would expect hip hop or something, lol.
Indeed, looks can be deceiving!

That's actually about studying fees. You know, everyone always needs money. I'm not entitled to the "best" foreign language education in a "college" (as some of you call it) - I can't study take courses for Latin and even Wenyan - and so I have to hunt for scholarly stuff on my own. Many budding students like me are actually looking for opportunities abroad for many subjects..in the case of languages, some are even seeking such in Taiwan rather than elsewhere for Chinese language and literature (so yes, Taiwan is recommendable for Mandarin learners).

While I do think Prof. A. has already acknowledged that he might sound quixotic to encourage everyone to learn a bunch of languages... really, it isn't exactly easy at all to pursue linguistic proficiency as a highly educated person (in my context, i.e. not baby talk, fishmonger talk...no offence intended), esp. for classical langs. I want to save words, so if I haven't made it clear: much of my povs are pretty much based on personal assumptions (i.e. personal situation), and that's why I focus very much on money.

Again, in view of the clichéd argument that Prof. has put forward, the general "decline" of education system (no, actually, in my context, the widespread of higher education instead, largely without the old elitist competition esp. in "non-professional" subjects), to learn any language almost like any (essentially western) polyglot, as those mentioned so far, is to make a young HK Chinese a very much scholarly person. A point to note, btw: if you speak Chinese one day as a highly educated person without much resort to foreign loanwords or even words in your native language, presumably English, (young) natives would already be saying that you are very cultured. I switch code less frequently, just because I may know English better than others, and many HK guys are already saying I'm very cultured, something that I may not deserve that much. In other words, those undergraduates' speech is so embarrassingly empty for them that a slight difference in the idiolect of their counterpart makes a HUGE difference.

"But does that mean Japanese people often start talking in English with foreigners?"
Zatsu-san: I don't have a correct answer to that but in my experience (At least in Osaka) people only talk to me in Japanese (Specially if I talk to them first) and I even had people asking me for directions, which might mean 2 things:
1) People in Osaka are more international than in other states
2) After 10 years in Japan without going much to the beach like I did in Rio de Janeiro I got YELLOW and look like a Japanese!!! :)
It's funny that I never had people talking in Japanese to me in other states...I wonder why...


"I've seen more foreigners in Korean TV than in Japanese TV and always thought it was a "more open" society, at least Seoul, but I was under the impression people in Japan were real helpful as well?"
I wonder if that's because many Koreans go abroad for studying and are MUCH MORE OPEN that the Japanese. My Korean friends say they're the Latin people of Asia, which I agree!!
Another thing might be that there are many christians in Korea and they tend to consider people equally. In 98 I spent christmas in Korea at a church and felt really at home. I definitely wanna visit Korea again.

"btw, do you know Becky or Marie?
I remembered them because, at least Becky, she was born and always grew up in Japan, right? But isn't she really "loud" for a Japanese, even if it's really part of her personality? Sometimes it feels she's "acting" foreign or something, but it might be just me. "
I know Becky and think she's on TV just because she's "haafu" (In America she would be called DOUBLE). Well, I guess her behavior is accepted because she has English roots...
I wonder what "acting foreign" means...Well, in Japan that means to behave in a "non-Japanese" way, which kinda sucks!! I'm glad I'm not Japanese and am not expected to behave in a certain way.

J.C.
I didn't mean that you have any resentment, I had the original poster in mind.
And Jero is great.

Guest: No problemo about the "resentment" thingy.
BTW, I was watching Jero on TV today. It seems he's entertaining the Japanese. My question is: Until when is it gonna last?

Maybe Takeshi Kitano will employ him. He seems to like having black people in his movies or shows. What do you make of that?

Guest:
Good question but I have no answer to it.
If foreigners appear on TV speaking in Japanese and speak BAD JAPANESE , that's what pleases people because they like to see people struggling and have argument to say that JAPANESE IS DIFFICULT...
As for black people on TV, it pisses me off to see some making fools of themselves like Bobby (A K1 fighter) or his friend with a high pitched voice. The other black guy who used to appear was ZOMAHON and he stuttered like crazy...
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=1wIXP4hpjMM

I would like to appear on TV to make some Japanese mad!! :)
However, that would be my death sentence in this country because the Japanese get sick of things real fast...