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Multilinguals/Polyglots/Linguists/Bilinguals
Who is the most accomplished Multilingual that you have heard? This isn't about this forum, it's about your personal experience or what you've heard through clips. I'd primarily like to hear from people who are qualified to judge the languages.
For example, I know of a man who speaks "Ancient Greek, Latin, some Mandarin, and German in addition to English." I can't verify his skills though, Socrates and Cicero aren't around... In other words, I'm not qualified to judge the languages I don't know.
So, if you hear of Mr. Genius Educated Guy or Ms. Polly Glotte and you can't judge by your own experience, please give a reason WHY you think Mr. G. E. Guy or Ms. Glotte are the best multilingual people you know.
To me, a polyglot must SPEAK the languages. If you have another definition, please explain this. Please don't call people "fakes" if you have no proof. Mr. ZF is still a polyglot by my definition, even if he hasn't proven to me that he is the greatest polyglot. I say this because he spoke Spanish (I can judge this) and I heard an interview where he spoke English. I have seen copies of his book covers and they are in Portuguese, so I will reckon that he can speak Portuguese (because I can read the language) At the very least, he speaks three languages, but I suspect that he knows Arabic and French. That makes five.
I don't give points to people for simply studying a language. I've come across this idea a few times. I've heard people say or read that they speak multiple languages, but what they really mean is that they HAVE studied them. I study a lot of languages for fun (because I don't like TV much and I like to use my breaks for study), but I won't claim that I KNOW these languages.
"To me, a polyglot must SPEAK the languages. If you have another definition, please explain this."
This is a good definition.
I know a better one: a real polyglot is one who can DREAM and COUNT in various languages. Many people in Luxembourg are able to THINK in three languages (German + French + Letzebuergsch), able to chat just about anything (finance, engineering, cooking, music, simple gossip...) in those languages, able to grasp Berliner, Brusselian or Parisian slang, whilst being fluent in English and frequently Dutch too. Without forgetting that many Luxemburgers were born in Portuguese or Italian immigrant families.
Antwerp too is an amazing place. Any educated person is fluent in Dutch, French, English, and German. It is not even a bonus for a carreer, it's a minimal prerequisite for a job. If you can add e.g. Brazilian Portuguese or Russian (or preferably both) it's a lot better.
K.T., what's the obsession with poliglottery?
Any way, God must be a great polyglot, because he understands prayers in all languages.
"Any educated person is fluent in Dutch, French, English, and German. It is not even a bonus for a carreer, it's a minimal prerequisite for a job. If you can add e.g. Brazilian Portuguese or Russian (or preferably both) it's a lot better."
This seems to be the stereotype of Europeans as polyglots. It seems to be true more often in Benelux.
Very interesting comments on Luxembourg, Antwerp. I've listened to some Luxembourgish and can understand a bit. I actually like it.
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I don't think God is a polyglot. If you believe (I hear some groans) the Babel story, then He is the creator of the original language and the mess we have now is the confusion that resulted when human beings got too be too arrogant.
There aren't a lot of polyglots where I live, but they would fall into the the categories of academic types and those who have practical skills in speaking. I met one who is both. I actually don't know if "polyglot" should be used for people who have primarily reading knowledge of languages.
JMO, but speaking and having a great accent are important. However, I can also see the value of being able to read the languages and for some fields reading is basically all that is needed.
I mean it isn't necessary for God to be a polyglot. Students of Linguistics who make up languages can probably recognize the parts of their made-up language without trouble and I think that they can imagine variations, jumble the parts, say words backwards and create variations on the language. I think it has to be the same way if you believe in God.
Anyway, I think it was a kindness to mix up the languages. We would have messed up the planet earlier if we had a chance, I think.
Ain't I controversial?
But then how does God understand prayers in obscure languages?
<<There aren't a lot of polyglots where I live, but they would fall into the the categories of academic types and those who have practical skills in speaking. I met one who is both. I actually don't know if "polyglot" should be used for people who have primarily reading knowledge of languages.
JMO, but speaking and having a great accent are important. However, I can also see the value of being able to read the languages and for some fields reading is basically all that is needed.>>
Hmm, why are the academic people not regarded as polyglots? I would say an academic knowledge of the language is more impressive than just speaking it practically. Any old person can learn to speak a language practically, even the dumb slimy guy who cleans the toilets... but it takes a lot of dedication, education and intelligence to master the detailed aspects. But, it depends on your objectives I suppose.
"But then how does God understand prayers in obscure languages?"
If He isn't all-knowing, what worth is He? If He IS all-knowing, then he understands prayers in all languages without any human idea of translation, I suppose. Imagine, God not knowing language X, but some professor at Northwestern does...
"even the dumb slimy guy who cleans the toilets"
How difficult was it for him to learn to speak it? How well does he speak?
No need to scorn him.
Introverts may find that reading is the easy part. Extroverts may find that mastering the grammar and polishing the language is the tough part.
So, if an introvert learns to read ten languages (ten indo-european languages), is that REALLY a big accomplishment? It is an accomplishment, of course, but nothing like what I want to hear-a polyglot speaking TEN languages with a good vocabulary and native accent in each. I have never heard this.
Practically none. There are people who learn tough languages of my country, but they are nowhere near fluency. I think the guys at a famous teaching site could rival the advanced students (or else they wouldn't even dare to set it up), but still far less fluent than I am (a third language learner) lol.
I've also met people who claim knowledge of one or two other than English, but again it was minimal. In my social circle, I'm already the best person... or, I'd say I'm the ONLY one who bothers to learn foreign languages. It's a shame. I'm afraid my people are going to be this new century's worst monolinguals, with linguicides going on in many parts of my country.
...well, to be really arguing, I'd actually say most people, at least those I share culture and language with and I do meet, only know their native language and varying proficiency in English. I bet I speak Mandarin much better than some of the highest officials ruling me. For AA, it might be a worsening trend of the "world" (essentially your western world, not necessarily but very probably my country as well), but I'm actually optimistic. When facing English, you would either succeed or fail. But since we have more language contact, while there might be more languages that die than come into being, those who do care can at least learn a few of those colonial tongues before they start others.
With similar class settings but with grammar translation, my parents failed miserably in languages and remained as "monocultural" and monolingual as the vast majority of their country, but through the indoctrination and enlightenment with English, "I" ended their claim of learning genius, have been enjoying the free flow of information, and can learn practically anything now. So, I'm quite sure the trend is quixotic - indeed, how do I know 1984, to think, and the "quixotic" ideas of AA, if I didn't know English at all? I've been happy with cultural defamiliarization.
K.T.さん:Thanks for the interesting topic.
I agree with you that a polyglot must be able to SPEAK(I also would include to WRITE) the languages in question but that must be MORE than greetings and basic talk.
In that aspect I only met 3 people who were REALLY polyglots:
In my faculty in Brazil I had a friend who spoke English, German and Japanese in addition to his native Portuguese. After coming to Japan I met a czech guy who speaks English, German, Italian and Russian. I also had a Brazilian friend who speaks French, Italian and English.
Other than that I met a lot of people who know a bunch of stuff in each language but when push comes to shove they realize they don't really know the language.
I don't know about everybody's experience but in my opinion it's very difficult to be able to speak more than 5 languages with the same level , and then KEEP THEM in the same way.
Cheers!!
I'd say the probability of finding someone speaking n languages can be described as:
Pr(n)=exp(-n+1)/n
where n is number of languages
so the probabilities are
Pr(n=1) = 100%
Pr(n=2) = 18.4%
Pr(n=3) = 4.5%
Pr(n=4) = 1.2%
Pr(n=5) = 0.3%
Pr(n=10) = 0.001%
The parameters of the equation can be adjusted for different countries.
Very excellent model, I think. I hope I will win the nobel prize!
"I agree with you that a polyglot must be able to SPEAK(I also would include to WRITE) the languages in question but that must be MORE than greetings and basic talk."
The ideal multilingual would be able to read, write, speak, and understand each language, and that's image of a multilingual for many people. On the other hand it seems that "polyglot" simply means someone who speaks or uses many languages.
That covers a lot of so-called polyglots-those who speak and those who simply read the language to get information. I'm not fooled when people can say a few words in several languages although others who don't know Spanish from Italian will probably praise such "geniuses".
I cut Wendy Vo a lot of slack because of her age. I can only judge the languages that I know and because I have never seen a recital of SO many languages. If a native speaker of Arabic says that her Arabic is wonderful, I can't dispute it. I only know a tiny bit of Arabic. Then there was the big thing: I couldn't do this at her age.
I thought about writing up a transcript in English for all the languages that I know, so others would have a better idea of what she said, but judging from the limited interest in polyglots here, what good would that be?
What struck me was how few of the HTLAL "polyglots" were able to judge her languages. Are they bluffing with their claims of nine languages?
Without levels, it's hard to say what even "conversational" means. I was explaining how Ukrainian differs from Russian to a lady and within a week, a member of the international community was telling people that I spoke Ukrainian. I would love to speak Ukrainian, but I don't and I wouldn't claim knowledge of a language simply because I can make out that it's a text from the Bible and not a recipe for Ukrainian apple pie.
I'm sure others have heard these fish tales and huge claims concerning languages. The bottom line for me is speaking and understanding. If the other party can't understand you and you can't understand him at native speed, you really don't know the language (excepting those few idiosyncratic speakers who speak in a lazy way and want everyone to accept their speech.)
It's better to play down your abilities a little. Let the native judge you.
I remember telling a native speaker of language X that I speak "more or less" and her shock when I actually spoke at length. "Wow, you can speak a lot (of language X)." The surprise of her face was worth it. I wasn't lying. As a non-native, I will always be a lesser speaker of another language even if I have a good accent, know idioms, etc.
<<It's better to play down your abilities a little. Let the native judge you. >>
Quite the contrary! It's better to exaggerate your abilities and create an aura of power and intellectual superiority. It's easy enough to make excuses (aaaaaaah, I mean I speak Brazilian portuguese not continental! aaaaah, by Chinese I meant Cantonese not Mandarin!) Only learn the ones where people really can catch you out.
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