Well, Europeans kiss eachother which is a lot more extreme.
Have a Nice Day, How are you? etc.
I don't mind the kissing as much in some ways, but then you have to guess. Is it three or two or four?
>>"That's one thing - social distance seems to be much more heavily emphasized here than in much of the US, particularly the South and the West Coast, with the norm being to not try to intrude"
<nods head> Very possibly due to the German influence, Travis.<<
I myself would definitely agree here. Aside from a lot of the stereotypically "Wisconsinite" type things which show evidence of superficial German influence, this kind of thing is probably actually the most prominent long-term influence of any real significance that German settlement had upon the area. We may have completely adopted English and have had only a relatively superficial level of German influence upon our eating and drinking habits (despite how frequently such are popularly cited), but it seems that our manners and ways of interacting with each other have not really changed that much despite being otherwise heavily Americanized overall.
>>However, we in Reno get quite a few people from Wisconsin for the Bowling Tournaments; citizens are immediately recognizable by their dialect. I haven't noticed to any great degree a difference in "friendliness". But I must admit that the bowling-alley crowd is too narrow a demographic from which to make an accurate judgment...<<
One important note here is that this really is not about how nice people are here; I have known people who have moved to other parts of the US, particularly the Northeast, and said that people were really damn mean there, at least by our standards. Being nice in and of itself is in many ways part of politeness, which is something that is quite emphasized as a whole here (and which even a slight lack thereof relative to the expected degree of such is often viewed very negatively). This is quite clearly shown by how people are very often, at least here, more overtly nice to people they know less than people they know better.
Rather, all of this is about familiarity, intrusion, and imposition as opposed to niceness or lack thereof. One is not supposed to treat people one does not know as if one knew them personally; one is not to needlessly bother, intrude upon, or impose oneself upon people one does not know; one is not to take any role in anyone else's life which one is not somehow already part of outside that dictated by the social circumstances. Of course, the simple act of speaking to someone one does not know beyond that delimited by the specific needs of the individuals involved and the overall social context one is in; there is no reason why one should assume that someone else actually wants to talk to one, that they do not have better things to do of their own other than talk to one.
Of course, for these very reasons, all of this is highly dependent upon context, and what would be very much so overly familiar in one context may be accepted as the norm in another. In a supermarket, for instance, customers and employees are expected to be quite polite with each other but at the same time are supposed to not treat each other familiarly at all, while groups of customers are only supposed to really even acknowledge each others' existence in the form of forming orderly lines and otherwise not getting in each others' ways. In a coffee shop or bar, on the other hand, customers and employees often can be much more familiar with each other while not being as formal in their general interactions, while interactions between different customers who do not personally know each other are much more accepted. Even then, though, groups of customers who do not know each other leave each other alone much more often than not, and one still is not supposed to bother people who appear to be busy with their own matters or uninterested in talking with others.
<nods head> Very possibly due to the German influence, Travis.<<
I myself would definitely agree here. Aside from a lot of the stereotypically "Wisconsinite" type things which show evidence of superficial German influence, this kind of thing is probably actually the most prominent long-term influence of any real significance that German settlement had upon the area. We may have completely adopted English and have had only a relatively superficial level of German influence upon our eating and drinking habits (despite how frequently such are popularly cited), but it seems that our manners and ways of interacting with each other have not really changed that much despite being otherwise heavily Americanized overall.
>>However, we in Reno get quite a few people from Wisconsin for the Bowling Tournaments; citizens are immediately recognizable by their dialect. I haven't noticed to any great degree a difference in "friendliness". But I must admit that the bowling-alley crowd is too narrow a demographic from which to make an accurate judgment...<<
One important note here is that this really is not about how nice people are here; I have known people who have moved to other parts of the US, particularly the Northeast, and said that people were really damn mean there, at least by our standards. Being nice in and of itself is in many ways part of politeness, which is something that is quite emphasized as a whole here (and which even a slight lack thereof relative to the expected degree of such is often viewed very negatively). This is quite clearly shown by how people are very often, at least here, more overtly nice to people they know less than people they know better.
Rather, all of this is about familiarity, intrusion, and imposition as opposed to niceness or lack thereof. One is not supposed to treat people one does not know as if one knew them personally; one is not to needlessly bother, intrude upon, or impose oneself upon people one does not know; one is not to take any role in anyone else's life which one is not somehow already part of outside that dictated by the social circumstances. Of course, the simple act of speaking to someone one does not know beyond that delimited by the specific needs of the individuals involved and the overall social context one is in; there is no reason why one should assume that someone else actually wants to talk to one, that they do not have better things to do of their own other than talk to one.
Of course, for these very reasons, all of this is highly dependent upon context, and what would be very much so overly familiar in one context may be accepted as the norm in another. In a supermarket, for instance, customers and employees are expected to be quite polite with each other but at the same time are supposed to not treat each other familiarly at all, while groups of customers are only supposed to really even acknowledge each others' existence in the form of forming orderly lines and otherwise not getting in each others' ways. In a coffee shop or bar, on the other hand, customers and employees often can be much more familiar with each other while not being as formal in their general interactions, while interactions between different customers who do not personally know each other are much more accepted. Even then, though, groups of customers who do not know each other leave each other alone much more often than not, and one still is not supposed to bother people who appear to be busy with their own matters or uninterested in talking with others.
Would it be considered strange in the USA to talk to a stranger, on a bus for example.?
Not as much in the Southern United States, but I imagine in a city like New York City or Chicago it would probably be considered strange.
***Well, Europeans kiss eachother which is a lot more extreme***
Well, what's wrong with that? Usually, you have to know a person before you plant a kisser on the cheek. Europeans (especially Continentals) have always followed this practise - usually a kiss to the other person's right cheek first, then the other one. In the Netherlands, for example, they go a step further - right, left then right again - a three step exercise. Everybody seems to do that there. Of course, it's normally a male/female thing, but no way exclusively. It really depends on the nature of the individuals concerned.
I love the Netherlands - friendly, open minded people with a sense of humour very similar to that of the British - and for the most part they seem to speak English better than the English themselves! Even young kids seem to get by in spoken, if broken, English. A lot of them are also incredibly tall - the people generally I mean, not the young kids. It must be either something in the water or something they put into the Gouda and Edam cheeses....
In my own family situation we usually do the two cheek kiss thing, it's always been like that.
The two cheek kiss is now very common in the UK, more especially in England, and more especially in London and the South I've noticed....again in a male/female situation - but there again, not exclusively.
It's mostly in a show business type situation, such as contestants appearing in TV competitions or anything before the cameras really where people who are strangers to each other all kiss each other singly on the cheek on meeting for the first time.
In towns and cities people on buses and trains don't usually talk to each other on a casual basis because of the cirumstances - journeys are usually quite short, people are coming and going in large numbers all the times, and there is always a sense of urgency to get to point A from point B...pretty much the case in an urban life situation.
I know that if you started to chat up a person sitting, or standing, next to you on a London tube train, or a bus, for instance, you would meet with some pretty mixed responses. There's a high chance that s/he wouldn't understand English anyway. Not that I have ever dared chat up a person on the London bus or tube train.
However, if ever some kind of emergency occurred, people would pretty much be very communicative with each other. The dreadful London tube terrorist bombings of 07 July 2005 saw total strangers chatting and caring for each other as if they were bosom buddies. It all really depends on the situation in hand.
Well, what's wrong with that? Usually, you have to know a person before you plant a kisser on the cheek. Europeans (especially Continentals) have always followed this practise - usually a kiss to the other person's right cheek first, then the other one. In the Netherlands, for example, they go a step further - right, left then right again - a three step exercise. Everybody seems to do that there. Of course, it's normally a male/female thing, but no way exclusively. It really depends on the nature of the individuals concerned.
I love the Netherlands - friendly, open minded people with a sense of humour very similar to that of the British - and for the most part they seem to speak English better than the English themselves! Even young kids seem to get by in spoken, if broken, English. A lot of them are also incredibly tall - the people generally I mean, not the young kids. It must be either something in the water or something they put into the Gouda and Edam cheeses....
In my own family situation we usually do the two cheek kiss thing, it's always been like that.
The two cheek kiss is now very common in the UK, more especially in England, and more especially in London and the South I've noticed....again in a male/female situation - but there again, not exclusively.
It's mostly in a show business type situation, such as contestants appearing in TV competitions or anything before the cameras really where people who are strangers to each other all kiss each other singly on the cheek on meeting for the first time.
In towns and cities people on buses and trains don't usually talk to each other on a casual basis because of the cirumstances - journeys are usually quite short, people are coming and going in large numbers all the times, and there is always a sense of urgency to get to point A from point B...pretty much the case in an urban life situation.
I know that if you started to chat up a person sitting, or standing, next to you on a London tube train, or a bus, for instance, you would meet with some pretty mixed responses. There's a high chance that s/he wouldn't understand English anyway. Not that I have ever dared chat up a person on the London bus or tube train.
However, if ever some kind of emergency occurred, people would pretty much be very communicative with each other. The dreadful London tube terrorist bombings of 07 July 2005 saw total strangers chatting and caring for each other as if they were bosom buddies. It all really depends on the situation in hand.
>>Not as much in the Southern United States, but I imagine in a city like New York City or Chicago it would probably be considered strange.<<
Here it is very strange - buses are normally practically silent here, to say the very least.
Here it is very strange - buses are normally practically silent here, to say the very least.
<<buses are normally practically silent here, to say the very least.>>
To say the least? What could be less than pure and utter silence?
To say the least? What could be less than pure and utter silence?
>><<buses are normally practically silent here, to say the very least.>>
To say the least? What could be less than pure and utter silence?<<
Well, it is not that people do not just talk, but rather that they generally do their best to ignore and stay away from each other altogether - and it is very irritating, at least to me, when people do not do so; I would prefer to not interact with anyone on the bus aside from maybe the driver in the first place.
To say the least? What could be less than pure and utter silence?<<
Well, it is not that people do not just talk, but rather that they generally do their best to ignore and stay away from each other altogether - and it is very irritating, at least to me, when people do not do so; I would prefer to not interact with anyone on the bus aside from maybe the driver in the first place.
Here in Reno, person-to-person chat between strangers on busses is uncommon, but not unknown.
Friends on busses chat up a storm, however, often incurring the anger of the other passengers.
This practice probably varies quite a bit over the United States.
Friends on busses chat up a storm, however, often incurring the anger of the other passengers.
This practice probably varies quite a bit over the United States.
>>Friends on busses chat up a storm, however, often incurring the anger of the other passengers.<<
Normally people stay very quiet on the bus here, but there relatively commonly are people who will talk amongst themselves very loudly, which are really, really irritating as a whole.
One important note is that much of what I described above really applies to primarily the European American population here, with the African American population often having drastically different social rules in this department (which often have far more in common with those found in southern Europe). The differences include what the permissible volume to speak at in public is, as there is no such restriction as exists amongst most European Americans here amongst African Americans here. This often results in a lot of overall social friction, because the European American population here generally expects everyone to follow their social rules and treats their violation by people outside their own group the same as their violation by people inside their own group.
Normally people stay very quiet on the bus here, but there relatively commonly are people who will talk amongst themselves very loudly, which are really, really irritating as a whole.
One important note is that much of what I described above really applies to primarily the European American population here, with the African American population often having drastically different social rules in this department (which often have far more in common with those found in southern Europe). The differences include what the permissible volume to speak at in public is, as there is no such restriction as exists amongst most European Americans here amongst African Americans here. This often results in a lot of overall social friction, because the European American population here generally expects everyone to follow their social rules and treats their violation by people outside their own group the same as their violation by people inside their own group.
" I described above really applies to primarily the European American population here, with the African American population often having drastically different social rules in this department (which often have far more in common with those found in southern Europe)"
Isn't THAT the most profound truth? Travis, I offer you kudos for explaining a phenomenon in the most tactful, delicate way I've ever seen. :-)
In terms of the phenomenon itself, unfortunately it leads to cultural misunderstanding and reinforcement of stereotypes; I wish I knew an answer.
As an aside--I've noticed that the very youngest busriders (teenagers, for example) seem to be uniformly loud, irrespective of their background.
Isn't THAT the most profound truth? Travis, I offer you kudos for explaining a phenomenon in the most tactful, delicate way I've ever seen. :-)
In terms of the phenomenon itself, unfortunately it leads to cultural misunderstanding and reinforcement of stereotypes; I wish I knew an answer.
As an aside--I've noticed that the very youngest busriders (teenagers, for example) seem to be uniformly loud, irrespective of their background.
Travis, I want to clarify something: it's the phenomenon itself--not your accurate observation of it--that tends to create cultural misunderstanding and reinforcement of stereotypes...
>>Isn't THAT the most profound truth? Travis, I offer you kudos for explaining a phenomenon in the most tactful, delicate way I've ever seen. :-)
In terms of the phenomenon itself, unfortunately it leads to cultural misunderstanding and reinforcement of stereotypes; I wish I knew an answer.<<
This seems to be something that is very commonly missed in the overall understanding of race relations in North America. Boiling it all down to race or class does not seem to do it, as at least from what I myself have observed, the internalized sense of what social rules to follow and conflict between different sets of internalized social rules really is a very large, and possibly the largest, part of the matter.
>>As an aside--I've noticed that the very youngest busriders (teenagers, for example) seem to be uniformly loud, irrespective of their background.<<
I would not say that is always true, necessarily, but it is rather common for groups of younger busriders to be much louder overall than most other people, much to the annoyance of many of those around them...
In terms of the phenomenon itself, unfortunately it leads to cultural misunderstanding and reinforcement of stereotypes; I wish I knew an answer.<<
This seems to be something that is very commonly missed in the overall understanding of race relations in North America. Boiling it all down to race or class does not seem to do it, as at least from what I myself have observed, the internalized sense of what social rules to follow and conflict between different sets of internalized social rules really is a very large, and possibly the largest, part of the matter.
>>As an aside--I've noticed that the very youngest busriders (teenagers, for example) seem to be uniformly loud, irrespective of their background.<<
I would not say that is always true, necessarily, but it is rather common for groups of younger busriders to be much louder overall than most other people, much to the annoyance of many of those around them...
<<Here it is very strange - buses are normally practically silent here, to say the very least.>>
I agree. I'd also say "practically silent" because a lot of times, if the person sitting next to you has had a long morning and afternoon of drinking (which is more often than not), if you listen closely you can hear the sound of urine trickling off the seat and onto the floor.
I agree. I'd also say "practically silent" because a lot of times, if the person sitting next to you has had a long morning and afternoon of drinking (which is more often than not), if you listen closely you can hear the sound of urine trickling off the seat and onto the floor.