What does "native language" mean to you?

>><<The peoples of Chinese are always brain washing by the propaganda of Mandarinization Policy in that the Mandarin Speaking Elites defined Cantonese is a dialect.>>

Please read Travis's post above carefully!
In the English context, you of course can say Cantonese is a language.<<

In all honestly, the use of the word fāngyán in Mandarin (and any equivalents in other Sinitic languages) is not particularly useful though. The term covers a wide range of language varieties, ranging from things that are easily closely crossintelligible to things that merely share the same writing system. Hence while it is used traditionally in such, it is not necessarily all too useful in and of itself; one cannot necessarily justify the use of such in linguistic contexts at all just because of its traditional use.

Conversely, though, the terminology traditionally used in English has its issues as well. Take Norwegian and Swedish, for instance - most English-speakers would call them separate "languages", even though in reality most dialects of each are at least moderately crossintelligible with each other today. On the other hand, there are things that are typically called "dialects" of the same language in English, such as Central German "dialects" and Alemannic "dialects" or many pairs of Arabic "dialects", and yet the word "dialect" is normally used for them in English despite them having little to no inherent crossintelligibility (without the use of shared standard varieties) in practice. Hence the terms "language" and "dialect" have their limitations in English as well; I myself tend to these days just use the term "variety" or, in cases where a given language variety is associated with a particular locale, "dialect" in all cases without really using the term "language" in a fashion beyond simply letting laypersons know what I generally mean.

<<Conversely, though, the terminology traditionally used in English has its issues as well. Take Norwegian and Swedish, for instance ...... Hence the terms "language" and "dialect" have their limitations in English as well>>
That is a very good point!
Remind you: the word ·½ÑÔ (f¨¡ngy¨¢n) is every bit academic and useful among the research community of linguistics in China as it is popular on the lips of ordinary Chinese people!
If necessary,we may introduce Fangyan into the English language like kung fu and tofu, so as to avoid confusion with DIALECT.

the word ·½ÑÔ (f¨¡ngy¨¢n) is every bit academic and useful among the research community of linguistics in China as it is popular on the lips of ordinary Chinese people!

Guest Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:47 pm GMT

<<The peoples of Chinese are always brain washing by the propaganda of Mandarinization Policy in that the Mandarin Speaking Elites defined Cantonese is a dialect.>>

It's the same we Swedish are always brain washing by propaganda of Standard Swedish policy. Same with western world. So, it's no surprise because we western have this history.

"Guest Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:34 pm GMT
The Tibetan people say NO to you! "


Fortunately , most Tibetans in "Tibet Autonomous Region of People's Republic of China" are willing to speak Mandarin at home.

Mandarin will be spoken by most people in Hongkong.
During 1950s, there were not only Cantonese but also Hakka,Minnan,Chaozhou Hua etc spoken in Hong Kong. But finally Hakka , Minnan,Chaozhou Hua are replaced by Cantonese for economics reason. Now, Mandarin will be a bright future for the people in Hong Kong, so Mandarin will follow the same road like Cantonese to take the lead in Hong Kong.

>>Taiwanese is only a political name, not linguistic name. Before 1980, its original name is "Xiamen Hua" which means the dialect of Xiamen. Xiamen Hua is also the Minnan dialect. <<
>> I agree with you. “台语” (Taiwanese) is very much a recent faricated thing. <<
>> Correct: Taiwanese is a political term <<

Taiwanese is a "term of Sociolinguistics", not political term.

In History, the Taiwan was controlled by several different political powers.
First stage were Holland and Spain.
Second stage was Koxinga.
Third stage was Manchurian Conquerors.
Fourth stage was Japan.
Fifth stage was KMT.

The Hokkien (Mandarin name: Min Nan) was named in different terms in Taiwan at the different stages of past 400 years history. The term “台语” (Taiwanese) was adopted at the stage of Japanese colony. This term was called in that time popularly. There are many books of that time use this term "Taiwanese" to mean the Formosa Hokkien. So "Taiwanese" is a term of Sociolinguistics. You can easy find these old books in the libraries of Taiwan.

In 1950s, KMT banned the term "Taiwanese" and replaced it with "Min Nan" or "Xiamen Hua". After 1980s, the Open Policy allowed the term of "Taiwanese" be to restore.

>>Of course, mind you that a lot of this has to do with a particular word fāngyán which is generally translated in English to "dialect" but which really has a meaning in English more akin to "regional language".

I think Shuimo may be very interested to see the complications of translating 方言, language, dialect, variety... from English/Chinese to Chinese/English. Very often such matters are politicize

>>the fucking pro-Taiwan independence politicians who don't have knowledge of linguistics creates this term"Taiwanese". Now it's the time to restore the name to "Xiamen Hua".

This is strictly impolite. It may sound better to ask the folks of Taiwan and Fujian instead.

>>In the English context, you of course can say Cantonese is a language.

I don't think there's a problem with translation and linguistics intertwined with culture. I believe I speak three languages, namely Cantonese (the best), Mandarin (the second best), and English (the only foreign, and third best).

>>The Chinese people say NO to that, period!

Think about it, very interesting things!

On what grounds do you say Tibet is Chinese? From the perspective of the PRC government? Or who else? If you do read history books of the past carefully... now, just as some sort of reminder, I'm not discussing politics here...

In *some* interpretations, Tibet didn't use to be part of the Ming Dynasty; instead, they did have some connections with the Ming government. But in the Qing Dynasty, in *some* interpretations again, it became Qing (Chinese) territory. Before 1950, Tibet was de facto (in international legal terms) independent when ROC couldn't integrate its country very well, and as you might know, it might have been the results of a British plot (and so was the MacMahon line...)

And after 1950, yes, the PRC had the final say in asserting that Tibet really was and is now Chinese (PRC). If you support this, you may also be supporting the government perspective. It doesn't really matter if someone disagrees with your stance, period.

>>Now, Mandarin will be a bright future for the people in Hong Kong, so Mandarin will follow the same road like Cantonese to take the lead in Hong Kong.

如果你不是在玩曲線就奇怪了！

"Guest Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:30 pm GMT


Taiwanese is a "term of Sociolinguistics", not political term.

In History, the Taiwan was controlled by several different political powers.
First stage were Holland and Spain.
Second stage was Koxinga.
Third stage was Manchurian Conquerors.
Fourth stage was Japan.
Fifth stage was KMT.

The Hokkien (Mandarin name: Min Nan) was named in different terms in Taiwan at the different stages of past 400 years history. The term “台语” (Taiwanese) was adopted at the stage of Japanese colony. This term was called in that time popularly. There are many books of that time use this term "Taiwanese" to mean the Formosa Hokkien. So "Taiwanese" is a term of Sociolinguistics. You can easy find these old books in the libraries of Taiwan.

In 1950s, KMT banned the term "Taiwanese" and replaced it with "Min Nan" or "Xiamen Hua". After 1980s, the Open Policy allowed the term of "Taiwanese" be to restore. "



Hakka in Hong Kong and Taiwan are sociolinguistically different. Why Hakka doesn't choose another name like Maoli-ish etc?
English in UK and India are sociolinguistically different. Why English in India not be called "Indianish"?
Cantonese in Hong Kong and Guangdong are sociolinguistically different. Why Cantonese in Hong Kong not be called Hongish, etc?

Btw, Japanese adopted Minnan as "Taiwanese" because it used to be spoken by majority in Taiwan, but now it's different. Mandarin is spoken by majority in Taiwan. So, Mandarin shall be Taiwanese, not Minnan under the rule of majority. It's like Welsh not being called English, but West German dialect being called English because it's spoken by majority in UK.
So, Taiwanese is not a language name but a political term.

"Xie Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:34 am GMT


Think about it, very interesting things!

On what grounds do you say Tibet is Chinese? From the perspective of the PRC government? Or who else? If you do read history books of the past carefully... now, just as some sort of reminder, I'm not discussing politics here...

In *some* interpretations, Tibet didn't use to be part of the Ming Dynasty; instead, they did have some connections with the Ming government. But in the Qing Dynasty, in *some* interpretations again, it became Qing (Chinese) territory. Before 1950, Tibet was de facto (in international legal terms) independent when ROC couldn't integrate its country very well, and as you might know, it might have been the results of a British plot (and so was the MacMahon line...)

And after 1950, yes, the PRC had the final say in asserting that Tibet really was and is now Chinese (PRC). If you support this, you may also be supporting the government perspective. It doesn't really matter if someone disagrees with your stance, period. "


Tibet's situation is like USA's Hawaii.
Tibet was part of China or not, but NOW it's part of China. It's like Hawaii was not part of USA, but now it's part of USA.In Tibet, Han people:8 million people. Tibetan:500 million. Under the rule of majority, Han people shall be the Tibetans.So, Tibetans are willing to speak Mandarin.

在西藏，漢族有8百萬人，藏族也只有5百萬人。
因此，按照民主原則，占多數的漢族西藏當地人可不想要獨立呢。
至於，海外那些藏族想要獨立，就去他們的印度那裡建立一個西藏自由邦，也許你們崇拜的民主印度還會同意呢，可是要在西藏，先問問占多數的漢族吧！他們可能會給你一句話：門都沒有！

Chinese language is so cheap.
Go sell your junk to other websites, you producers of poisoned milk!

"Guest Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:11 am GMT
Chinese language is so cheap.
Go sell your junk to other websites, you producers of poisoned milk! "


Your language is so dirty.
Go sell your junk to other websites, you producers of craps!

"Guest Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:11 am GMT
Chinese language is so cheap.
Go sell your junk to other websites, you producers of poisoned milk! "


Your language is going to be bankrupt!
Let's take "Lehman Brothers" as example...
You still need to borrow money from another countries... how poor you are!

<<Guest Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:11 am GMT
Chinese language is so cheap.
Go sell your junk to other websites, you producers of poisoned milk! >>

"Cheap" as it is, what everybody does know for sure is a steady increasing number of people worldwide learning Chinese as a foreign language!
Is Antimoon your privately-owned blog or sth prompting you to spit such garbage? O(∩_∩)O