Hey British guys, I love this accent!!!

<<BTW, do they sound anything alike, do you know?>>

Aside from being urban accents that are generally perceived as lower-class, they're actually quite different. Cockney, for instance, has a distinctive vowel shift that includes [eI]<[VI], [aI]<[AI], [aU]<[{U], plus L-vocalization (pronouncing L like W at the end of syllables), H-dropping, glottal stopping, the southern English trap-bath split (saying "cahnt" and "bahth") and pronouncing TH like F and V.

Scouse, on the other hand, lacks the diphthong shifts, L-vocalization, and H-dropping that occurs in Cockney, it often pronounces TH like T or D (not F or V), and it exhibits a distinctive type of consonant-softening in which stop consonants are pronounced as fricatives, affricates, or flaps in many positions. Like other Northern English dialects, it lacks the trap-bath split (so it pronounces "can't" and "bath" more like in General American), as well as the foot-strut split (so that words like "foot" and "strut" use the same vowel, [U]).

<< And besides, they can't understand anyone else! It's the same with British people I've found prefer the California accent typically, or the New York accent because of Hollywood and think that the Southern accent sounds stupid.>>

I lot of people in the North US also think the Southern accent sounds stupid. A lot of them have a nice drawl that doesn't sound stupid at all, in fact it sounds quite elegant and charming. Others have an accent I find hard to understand. The accent in general, on a woman, makes them sound a bit friendlier and homier than their Northern counterparts.

Terry, I also heard that the Southern accent is derived from the old English gentry of the Virginia and Carolina plantations who first settled there. So ironically what came from upper crust England is now seen as lower class American! Do you think it was possibly the Civil War which brought about this stigma? The split between the industrialised North and the agrarian South in the late 1800s?

Re: "...I also heard that the Southern accent is derived from the old English gentry of the Virginia and Carolina plantations who first settled there." --- Graem

Graem,

This is hard too tell for sure because many hilbillies settled in the South and the British settled a large prison population down there too starting with the Oglethorpe colony in Georgia in 1733.

That must have had an effect too then. Do you think the import of Welsh, Northern English and Scottish coalminers into the Appalachians effected the accent too? Probably hard to track with so much immigration. I can see in the hillbillies that London working class might have had an influence (where most of the conscripts would have come from, the same with Australia).
Accents are fascinating. For me, they are more intriguing than the language itself. Any good websites to check this stuff out on? I found some good stuff at the BBC on regional accents but not much on America.

<<Terry, I also heard that the Southern accent is derived from the old English gentry of the Virginia and Carolina plantations who first settled there. So ironically what came from upper crust England is now seen as lower class American! Do you think it was possibly the Civil War which brought about this stigma? The split between the industrialised North and the agrarian South in the late 1800s?>>

This kind of thing happens all the time in history, where at a certain time one accent is prestigious and another stigmatized, and then the tables turn. It just goes to show how arbitrary definitions are of what's "correct/standard" and what's not for a language. This happened with Spanish--in medieval times Northern Spanish accents were considered "backward" and "provinicial" but by the time of the completion of the Reconquista Northern Spanish had become the prestigious variety. This newly prestigious Northern Spanish was spread to much of the rest of Spain by forces as they reconquered Spain, which was complete in 1492. Even today, Southern Iberian Spanish accents tend to be more stigmatized than northern ones, while the case used to be the exact opposite a millennium ago.

<<For me, they are more intriguing than the language itself. Any good websites to check this stuff out on? I found some good stuff at the BBC on regional accents but not much on America.>>

An excellent introduction to different varieties of English as spoken in America today may be found at PBS' "Do you speak American?" site:

http://www.pbs.org/speak/

They cover a wide range of interesting issues, and detail some of the vowle shifts (such as the Northern Cities Vowel Shift and the California Vowel Shift) which are changing regional accents literally as we speak (pun kind of intended).

Here is the page that details some of the vowel shifts going on:

http://www.pbs.org/speak/ahead/change/changin/

Graem,

Linguist William Lubov has a theory that accents in a community are determined by its dominant members. The rest of the people in the town or city tend to imitate them. He has some data to back it up. He cites an example of a new accent which appeared in Philadelphia neighborhood (in this case, a mostly White neighborhood) about 30 years ago and traced it to a single woman who was kind of the 'big mama' there you might say.

The planter class certainly dominated parts of the South but the collapse of slavery in 1865 probably undercut their accents in places like Richmond and Charlston where they once held sway.

Some of my own ancestors were Welsh and Scotch-Irish type hilbillies who settled in western Pensylvania. I'm not sure that they had much influence on the accent there but they did on the lexicon. Some words like 'youngins' (young ones; children) and 'youins (you all) are attributed to them . A few years ago I remember hearing an elderly man in a Denny's restaurant say "We had a mama squirrel in our back yard comin' down a fruit tree with her youngins."

Scottish accents in North America are strongest in Canada. I still remember a Scot named Glen up in Alberta once talking about a chesterfield (couch) and pronouncing it with a Scottish accent which sounded like ches-tiRR-fee-uld where as I would pronounce it ches-ter-feeld.

<<Do you think it was possibly the Civil War which brought about this stigma? The split between the industrialised North and the agrarian South in the late 1800s?>>

I do actually, Graeme. After the War Between the States or the War of Northern Aggression as the Southerners like to call it, we really destroyed them, carpetbaggers etc on top of raping, plundering and burning and all that goes with war. Once a society has been so badly beaten, I imagine schooling must suffer. They had all they could do to get back on their feet.

Also the winner writes the history and the "losers" are often stigmatized.

<< Terry, I also heard that the Southern accent is derived from the old English gentry of the Virginia and Carolina plantations who first settled there. So ironically what came from upper crust England is now seen as lower class American! >>

Now that would be irony.:) And of course history is loaded with it. It's hard to imagine British English and Southern US English as related... but stranger things have happened.

<<Aside from being urban accents that are generally perceived as lower-class, they're actually quite different. Cockney, for instance, has a distinctive vowel shift >> etc.

Than you for explaining that for me Lazar. I honestly, stupidly, thought they were pretty much the same.

<<Now that would be irony.:) And of course history is loaded with it. It's hard to imagine British English and Southern US English as related... but stranger things have happened.>>

Well, if you think about it, all English varieties are ultimately related ;) All dialects have changed in progressive (new) ways compare to older varieties and all dialects have retained some conservative (older) features. Which combination of specific conservative and progressive features we're talking about is what makes up a specific dialect.

<<An excellent introduction to different varieties of English as spoken in America today may be found at PBS' "Do you speak American?" site: >>

Thanks for the links.

<<This kind of thing happens all the time in history, where at a certain time one accent is prestigious and another stigmatized, and then the tables turn.>>

I guess that's what I was trying to say about the Civil War.

<<Some of my own ancestors were Welsh and Scotch-Irish type hilbillies who settled in western Pensylvania. I'm not sure that they had much influence on the accent there but they did on the lexicon. Some words like 'youngins' (young ones; children) and 'youins (you all) are attributed to them . A few years ago I remember hearing an elderly man in a Denny's restaurant say "We had a mama squirrel in our back yard comin' down a fruit tree with her youngins." >>

I've heard some older southern people use "youngins." I rather like it.

<<This is hard too tell for sure because many hilbillies settled in the South and the British settled a large prison population down there too starting with the Oglethorpe colony in Georgia in 1733. >.

Graeme, Now that's news to me. I knew about the Australian penal colonies but I didn't know they had any here. That would make a difference, I would think, in accents. Were "hillbillies" called that in Britain or did that name stick when they moved to the hills here? I thought it had something to do with the Appalachians. Do you know?

<<Scottish accents in North America are strongest in Canada.>>

This brings to mind a question I've been meaning to ask. Why do so many Canadians say, "aboot' for about? Is it the Scottish influence? I doubt seriously it's the French.

<<Damian, it's not like we can tell the difference! >>

<<Are you serious, Uriel? I can tell the difference between the English and the Irish and the English and the Scots but I have trouble distinguishing between the Scottish and Irish accents. They sound very similar to me. I don't know anything about Damian's "Scouses" and "Brummies" but they sure don't sound appealing.:) >>



Oooh, no, Terry: I was only talking about distinguishing the many, many accents of England. Irish and Scottish are pretty distinctive.

I think Scouse is what the Beatles sounded like -- sort of goofy and dreamy.



<<I knew about the Australian penal colonies but I didn't know they had any here.>>


I have heard it said that the reason Australia was founded was because the British needed a NEW dumping ground after they lost America -- if you look at the dates, you will find that the first colony in Australia was founded right after the end of the American Revolution.

<<I have heard it said that the reason Australia was founded was because the British needed a NEW dumping ground after they lost America -- if you look at the dates, you will find that the first colony in Australia was founded right after the end of the American Revolution.>>

Now that is interesting, Uriel. I'm going to have to look into this. I never heard about this before.