Do you use the same vowel for ''cat'' and ''bag''? I'm from Minnesota, and for me ''cat'' is /ki{t/ and ''bag'' is /beIg/, so they don't share the same vowel for me.
The vowel sounds in ''cat'' and ''bag''
I have the same vowel ([{]) in both of those words. I have no -ag or -eg raising in my dialect (Eastern New England).
Being from Michigan, I tense /ae/ in both of those words, but not to the extent of /beIg/.
As I'm also from Minnesota, I have the same pronunciations as Bill for those words.
The only consonant that seems to produce raising in my dialect is /N/, and only consistently with /{/:
rang - [r\eIN]
sank - [seINk]
Sometimes /N/ can induce raising of /E/ as well, although I'm variable here:
strength - [str\eINT] or [str\ENT]
length - [leINT] or [lENT]
And if I were referring to the name of the IPA letter ŋ, I would only ever say [EN], not *[eIN].
rang - [r\eIN]
sank - [seINk]
Sometimes /N/ can induce raising of /E/ as well, although I'm variable here:
strength - [str\eINT] or [str\ENT]
length - [leINT] or [lENT]
And if I were referring to the name of the IPA letter ŋ, I would only ever say [EN], not *[eIN].
I consistently have front-vowel raising (so, it affects /{/ /E/ and /I/) before same-morpheme /N/ (doesn't apply across morpheme boundaries). I also pretty consistenty have /Eg/ raising but never /{g/ raising. In fact, my /{/ tends to lower as a result of the California Vowel Shift, so my "bag" may be anywhere from [b{:g] to [ba:g]. Compare this with my "bang," which is [beN], my "band" [b{nd] (CVS doesn't apply to pre-nasal /{/), my "beg" [be:g], and "bet" [bEt]. My "cat" is anywhere from [k_h{t] to [k_hat], so it has the same vowel as my "bag," altho of course the one in "bag" is longer as a result of being before the voiced stop.
For me, those are:
"cat" : /k{t/ -> [k_h{?]
"bag" : /b{g/ -> [b{:g_0]
"rang" : /reN/ -> [r\e:N]
"strength" : /streNT/ -> [StSr\eNkT]
"length" : /leNT/ -> [5eNkT]
As you can see, I do have raising of historical /{/ and /E/ to current /e/ before /N/ (note that this is phonemic, and that I never have /{/ or /E/ before /N/), but I preserve them before /g/. Also note that the [{] above is a rather high [{], but is distinguished from [E], which is somewhat centered what still not [3] or [@] (which is noticable because [{] is forward of [E] even though it's still a bit lower than it).
"cat" : /k{t/ -> [k_h{?]
"bag" : /b{g/ -> [b{:g_0]
"rang" : /reN/ -> [r\e:N]
"strength" : /streNT/ -> [StSr\eNkT]
"length" : /leNT/ -> [5eNkT]
As you can see, I do have raising of historical /{/ and /E/ to current /e/ before /N/ (note that this is phonemic, and that I never have /{/ or /E/ before /N/), but I preserve them before /g/. Also note that the [{] above is a rather high [{], but is distinguished from [E], which is somewhat centered what still not [3] or [@] (which is noticable because [{] is forward of [E] even though it's still a bit lower than it).
<<Also note that the [{] above is a rather high [{], but is distinguished from [E], which is somewhat centered what still not [3] or [@] (which is noticable because [{] is forward of [E] even though it's still a bit lower than it).>>
Just like my [{] tends to be rather low (approaching [a]). Our respective [{]s are the result of our respective dialects moving them in different directions.
Just like my [{] tends to be rather low (approaching [a]). Our respective [{]s are the result of our respective dialects moving them in different directions.
That should be "but still not [3] or [@]" in my previous post. Oh, another note is also that what I often write as [A] is approaching [a], in informal speech, except that there are certain words, such as "ja" (or "yah" if you prefer more English-like spelling), in my dialect which almost invariably use [a] (but actually, the [a] in "ja" seems to somewhat approach the *low* [{] at times when it is pronounced in a very unstressed fashion, even though this does contrast with the [{] in "yeah", which is a very high [{] and when very unstressed in informal speech will actually become a true (not backed) [E]).
Both "cat" and "bag" take the "trap" vowel in both RP and GAE. However, in upper-RP the "trap" vowel sounds something like "ea" (it starts out as the 'dress' vowel and ends up as the RP 'trap' vowel - it is thus kind of a dipthong). However that is the case in more old-fashioned U-RP. In modern U-RP the 'trap' vowel is a monopthong intermediate in quality between mainsteam RP 'trap' and mainstream RP 'dress'.
There are of course, other realisations of the 'trap' vowel (especially in southern US English or in New York English) but as young, upwardly mobile people in the US are moving towards GAE and as these pronunciations are not exactly what most people would consider "standard" or "prestige", we need not get into a detailed description of them.
Suffice it to say that 'baiug' and 'traiup' are not quite "standard" but more regional. Of course, how YOU choose to pronounce it is a matter of personal taste and, perhaps, the social circumstance you may find yourself in.
There are of course, other realisations of the 'trap' vowel (especially in southern US English or in New York English) but as young, upwardly mobile people in the US are moving towards GAE and as these pronunciations are not exactly what most people would consider "standard" or "prestige", we need not get into a detailed description of them.
Suffice it to say that 'baiug' and 'traiup' are not quite "standard" but more regional. Of course, how YOU choose to pronounce it is a matter of personal taste and, perhaps, the social circumstance you may find yourself in.
Can we please not speak of things like "trap" vowels and "dress" vowels, as those are completely meaningless to people who don't necessarily speak the particular dialects which those names actually correspond with the pronunciations of those words. That is, can you please use X-SAMPA (which is like IPA but is designed for use in pure ASCII text: for more information look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-SAMPA) in here instead of using such terms?
I don't know if I really "choose" to pronounce it a certain way, I just speak as is natural to my native dialect and how people speak around me, which reinforces my speech norms. I think it works that way for a lot of people, unless they're absolutely bent on shaking what may be or what they see as stigmatized speech. Of course, since my dialect is not stigmatized that's not a position I have to be in, but even for stigmatized speech norms there is always the "covert" and "in-group" prestige that accompanies them.
Oh, I should have responded earlier to the rest of this post, besides my objecting to the use of such "named" vowels.
>>There are of course, other realisations of the 'trap' vowel (especially in southern US English or in New York English) but as young, upwardly mobile people in the US are moving towards GAE and as these pronunciations are not exactly what most people would consider "standard" or "prestige", we need not get into a detailed description of them.<<
Well, they aren't doing here, as /{/ has been progressively moving in realization towards the original [E] (even though /E/ has been backed in turn), the "dress" vowel you speak of, and from what has been published by the UW Madison Linguistics Dept here, the speech of younger individuals is markedly less like conservative GAE than that of more middle-aged individuals (but in turn unlike older individuals, who tend to show more substratum influence). If anything, there most definitely *isn't* a trend towards GAE but rather away from it here (amongst younger individuals, of course).
>>Suffice it to say that 'baiug' and 'traiup' are not quite "standard" but more regional. Of course, how YOU choose to pronounce it is a matter of personal taste and, perhaps, the social circumstance you may find yourself in.<<
I assume that "aiu" here is supposed to mean the [e@] diphthong which has showed up in some NAE dialects with the NCVS; such is not present here, as the NCVS is somewhat different in its manifestation here (/e/ is not affected by it), but it is definitely present in various other dialects with the NCVS. As the NCVS is quite new and is only advancing and spreading, not receding, that completely contradicts your notion that somehow people are moving towards some idealized sort of conservative NAE in this region (the Upper Midwest).
>>There are of course, other realisations of the 'trap' vowel (especially in southern US English or in New York English) but as young, upwardly mobile people in the US are moving towards GAE and as these pronunciations are not exactly what most people would consider "standard" or "prestige", we need not get into a detailed description of them.<<
Well, they aren't doing here, as /{/ has been progressively moving in realization towards the original [E] (even though /E/ has been backed in turn), the "dress" vowel you speak of, and from what has been published by the UW Madison Linguistics Dept here, the speech of younger individuals is markedly less like conservative GAE than that of more middle-aged individuals (but in turn unlike older individuals, who tend to show more substratum influence). If anything, there most definitely *isn't* a trend towards GAE but rather away from it here (amongst younger individuals, of course).
>>Suffice it to say that 'baiug' and 'traiup' are not quite "standard" but more regional. Of course, how YOU choose to pronounce it is a matter of personal taste and, perhaps, the social circumstance you may find yourself in.<<
I assume that "aiu" here is supposed to mean the [e@] diphthong which has showed up in some NAE dialects with the NCVS; such is not present here, as the NCVS is somewhat different in its manifestation here (/e/ is not affected by it), but it is definitely present in various other dialects with the NCVS. As the NCVS is quite new and is only advancing and spreading, not receding, that completely contradicts your notion that somehow people are moving towards some idealized sort of conservative NAE in this region (the Upper Midwest).
With the spread of the California Vowel Shift here and a few other common sound changes, the trend is definitely moving away from "General American," even tho plenty of GAE features still persist in the speech of most native English speakers in California (and, really, no one speaks GAE 100% anyway).
For me the difference is vowel length.
cat = /k{t/
bag = /b{:g/
These are different phonemes in AusE. Here are a few minimal pairs (with the word (or name) with the short vowel first).
"an" / "Ann"
"span" (past tense of "spin") / "span" (as in "wing span")
"can" ("able") / "can" (the container)
"ran" (past tense of "run") / "Wran" (family name of a former NSW premier)
cat = /k{t/
bag = /b{:g/
These are different phonemes in AusE. Here are a few minimal pairs (with the word (or name) with the short vowel first).
"an" / "Ann"
"span" (past tense of "spin") / "span" (as in "wing span")
"can" ("able") / "can" (the container)
"ran" (past tense of "run") / "Wran" (family name of a former NSW premier)