English and romance languages extremely similar?
Finally, what makes french really so much closer to germanic languages?
All the exemples previously given in terms of vocabulary or structure are also present in the other romance languages.
If it is so obvious that french is half romance/ half germanic it should be easy to find as much germanic element than romance elements in a average french sentence, where are these elements?
>> If it is so obvious that french is half romance/ half germanic it should be easy to find as much germanic element than romance elements in a average french sentence, where are these elements? <<
Sorry, but nobody says that French is "half Romance/half Germanic". Even English isn't "half Germanic/half Romance" even though it contains so many Latinate loan-words.
<<Sorry, but nobody says that French is "half Romance/half Germanic". Even English isn't "half Germanic/half Romance" even though it contains so many Latinate loan-words. >>
Kinda reminds me of the thief who didn't steal anything--he's the first the cry out "I didn't steal anything" even before anyone asks...
or the kid who didn't fart haha
English absorbed bucket-loads of French words, but it's still essentially Germanic, the 100 most often used words in English are all Germanic.
I do find it curious, though, that some aspects of English syntax seem oddly similar to that found in the Western Romance languages, while some stereotypically Germanic syntactical features (such as Verb-2nd word order) has disappeared.
My guess is that Western Europe can be considered a "Sprachbund", an area where unrelated or distantly related languages neighboring each other come to develop similar features. For example, The Western Germanic and Western Romance languages both have a perfective construction using the verb "Have" and the Past Participle. English "I have spoken", Spanish "He Hablando". This "Have-Perfect" did not exist in either Latin or Proto-West-Germanic.
>>I do find it curious, though, that some aspects of English syntax seem oddly similar to that found in the Western Romance languages, while some stereotypically Germanic syntactical features (such as Verb-2nd word order) has disappeared<<
Verb 2nd word order hasn't completely disappeared though. It can still be seen in some phases i.e.
'Here comes the train'
'Only then will you understand'
" English "I have spoken", Spanish "He Hablando". "
Spanish would be "Hé hablado", wich would be litterally translated by
" I have spoke ", but would mean "I have spoken"
" Hé hablando" would mean "I have speaking". (incorrect)
'Here comes the train'
That exists too in Spanish: "aquí viene el tren". It's normal this structure and is in all languages.
I'm sure not *all* languages.
<<For example, The Western Germanic and Western Romance languages both have a perfective construction using the verb "Have" and the Past Participle. English "I have spoken", Spanish "He Hablando". This "Have-Perfect" did not exist in either Latin or Proto-West-Germanic>>
The contruct 'habbana' + ppt existed in Common West Germanic, and may have existed in Proto-Germanic (evidenced by its presence in Old Norse, and in all early forms of Germanic outside of Gothic [Old Norse, Old English, Old High German, etc])
This construction is therefore germanic in origin and was a common feature present in all early Mediaeval Germanic languages, like Old English, Old Frankish, Old High German; absent in Latin and unknown in Romance until AFTER the Germanic insurgence.
Western Romance syntax therefore contains elements of germanic.
>>The contruct 'habbana' + ppt existed in Common West Germanic, and >>may have existed in Proto-Germanic (evidenced by its presence in Old >>Norse, and in all early forms of Germanic outside of Gothic [Old Norse, >>Old English, Old High German, etc])
>>
>>This construction is therefore germanic in origin and was a common >>feature present in all early Mediaeval Germanic languages, like Old English, >>Old Frankish, Old High German; absent in Latin and unknown in Romance >>until AFTER the Germanic insurgence.
>>
>>Western Romance syntax therefore contains elements of germanic.
The construction existed in Latin too IIRC (or at least spoken Latin), but that doesn't mean it it was commonly used in either Proto-West-Germanic or Latin. In the same way Modern English's "Be + Gonna" Future Tense construction has been around for a while but has only come to replace "Will" in spoken English quite recently. Only during the Early Middle Ages does the Have-Perfect become common
Of course Western Romance contains elements of Western Germanic, Western Germanic has elements of Western Romance as well. That is the nature of Sprachbunds.
Robotto : « Well, Old French has had a large impact on the English language and caused its structure to alter drastically, although it is believed English would have lost most of its cases anyway should it have been left to its own devices. »
C'est vrai. D'autant que le français moderne ayant évolué par rapport au français médiéval, il en aurait été de même pour l'anglais, même si cette langue n'avait pas été affectée par l'influence du français.
Uriel : « Well, I don't know how romance speakers see English, but I can tell you that as an English-speaker, most Germanic languages are utter Greek to me, and I recognize far more cognates in French and Spanish. »
Le phénotype roman est très présent en lexicologie anglaise : l'apparence extérieure (phénotype) des mots anglais empruntés aux langues romanes est restée très proche de celle des langues romanes. En un sens, il existe une allure romane pour certains mots germaniques :
la nation — la nación — la nazione — la nació — a nação — the nation — die Nation — de natie
international — internacional — internazionale — internacional — internacional — international — international — internationaal
le garage — el garaje — il garage — el garatge — o garagem — the garage — die Garage — de garage
la machine — la máquina — la macchina — la màquina — a máquina — the machine — die Maschine — de machine
la Renaissance — el Renacimiento — il Rinascimento — el Renaixement — a Renascença/o Renascimento — the Renaissance — die Renaissance — de Renaissance.
<<just a comment Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:53 pm GMT
So, how can they explain that even in English acronyms where all words are latinates (english seems to like a lot using latin words in acronyms), the word order differ so drastically from romance languages (it is inverse of it), including french (considered structurally more germanic than latin) show same word order (and of course similar words) than the other romance languages.>>
The word order difference in these acronyms is due to the inverse relationship between adjectives and nouns in germanic vs romance languages. That's one of the few things that is syntactically opposite. That's merely a cosmetic difference.
Most people are pointing out small differences, but ignoring all the features that are IDENTICAL. I think people take the overwhelming similarities for granted and don't realize them, because are only capable of spotting out obvious outward differences. Kind of like how humans and chimpanzees are 98% similar genetically/biologically, even though the average person would find that hard to believe had it not been for modern science. Likewise, English and French as well as most romance languages essentially work the same way, although the untrained eye wouldn't notice it.
<<english seems to like a lot using latin words in acronyms>>
We don't "like" it. We use them because we have no choice in the matter. These Latin words were bequeathed to us and imposed upon us, and we haven't fully gotten rid of them yet.
<<the word order differ so drastically from romance languages (it is inverse of it), including french (considered structurally more germanic than latin) show same word order (and of course similar words) than the other romance languages>>
Acronyms are not enough to use to determine a language's syntactical underbuilding. It takes more than this.
<<Most people are pointing out small differences>>
Isn't that kinda what you are doing here?
"We don't "like" it. We use them because we have no choice in the matter. These Latin words were bequeathed to us and imposed upon us, and we haven't fully gotten rid of them yet."
Who is "we"? Latin words have been used in English for many centuries. I think you'll find the majority of people aren't all that bothered about linguistic purism.
<<Who is "we"? Latin words have been used in English for many centuries. I think you'll find the majority of people aren't all that bothered about linguistic purism. >>
Well, true, even I am not bothered by it.
I just think it's very odd that the poster's choice of words were "english seems to like..."
weird
Romance lexicon in English should not be regarded as an approval of their languages by us, as an attempt by us to be like them, or even that we like them.
That's where the poster errs