Look how well it worked with Italian.
Does English sound like other Germanic languages?
<<wrong. the language spoken by saxons reminds more of modern german,
and if you compare german with its ancestral language and modern english with old english, then you will realize that the shiftings in english are far more notable and outstanding in every respect, including pronounciation.>>
It's difficult to know what Proto-Germanic sounded like. Most Modern Germanic languages do not "sound" like High German though.
In addition to the 'th' sound, Proto-Germanic also had the English 'w' sound, which German has turned into a 'v', and a long 'ae' sound (like in English "jazz"), which still features in English. English does sound soft, as does Frisian. The only loss in English is to the fricative 'gh' sound (in German "ich" and it's guttural gaindeal in "acht"). No one knows for sure, but I would ween that English is more conservative in its phonology as regards Proto-Germanic than High German does. Just think of the German 'z'/'tz' and 'pf' sounds. Very un-Germanic to me.
<<it's actually funny you came up with the th sound english just has kept because of the influence of the celtic speaking peoples. no it's not a marker of germanicness. >>
Probably not due to Celtic. Why would Celtic affect English? Can't Anglo-Saxons maintain their own sounds without help from outlanders? Besides, Icelandic and some Scandinavian dialect preserve 'th' without proximity to any Celtic languages
and if you compare german with its ancestral language and modern english with old english, then you will realize that the shiftings in english are far more notable and outstanding in every respect, including pronounciation.>>
It's difficult to know what Proto-Germanic sounded like. Most Modern Germanic languages do not "sound" like High German though.
In addition to the 'th' sound, Proto-Germanic also had the English 'w' sound, which German has turned into a 'v', and a long 'ae' sound (like in English "jazz"), which still features in English. English does sound soft, as does Frisian. The only loss in English is to the fricative 'gh' sound (in German "ich" and it's guttural gaindeal in "acht"). No one knows for sure, but I would ween that English is more conservative in its phonology as regards Proto-Germanic than High German does. Just think of the German 'z'/'tz' and 'pf' sounds. Very un-Germanic to me.
<<it's actually funny you came up with the th sound english just has kept because of the influence of the celtic speaking peoples. no it's not a marker of germanicness. >>
Probably not due to Celtic. Why would Celtic affect English? Can't Anglo-Saxons maintain their own sounds without help from outlanders? Besides, Icelandic and some Scandinavian dialect preserve 'th' without proximity to any Celtic languages
In fact, of you heard PGmc spoken, you might not even think it was a Germanic leid.
It didn't really have the fixed initial stress at this time (though it was moving in that wending), and it was rife with terminal vowels (-a, -o, -io, -i, -e, etc), --even looking at a page of OHG seems like looking at a modern romance language (namo, mina, reiza).
PGmc was probably a very lyrical language. Funny some of its descendants have such an frempt harshness surrounding them.
<<no it's not a marker of germanicness>>
BTW, the 'th' sound *is* a marker of Germanicness. It was the PGmc development of IE 't'. That's Germanic.
It didn't really have the fixed initial stress at this time (though it was moving in that wending), and it was rife with terminal vowels (-a, -o, -io, -i, -e, etc), --even looking at a page of OHG seems like looking at a modern romance language (namo, mina, reiza).
PGmc was probably a very lyrical language. Funny some of its descendants have such an frempt harshness surrounding them.
<<no it's not a marker of germanicness>>
BTW, the 'th' sound *is* a marker of Germanicness. It was the PGmc development of IE 't'. That's Germanic.
Apart from 'ch', German preserved Germanic 'b' where English has 'f' or 'v' instead. What about Germanic vowels like 'e', the long 'o', or the open central 'a', still present in German?
Furthermore, what happened to the pronounciation of several English letters like 'j', 'u', or initial 'g'? Do you call that conservative?
The 'th' sound is no more a marker of Germanicness as is, for example, the 'ch'/'gh' sound.
Furthermore, what happened to the pronounciation of several English letters like 'j', 'u', or initial 'g'? Do you call that conservative?
The 'th' sound is no more a marker of Germanicness as is, for example, the 'ch'/'gh' sound.
Well, of course English has changed, but German has changed more (High German Consonant Shift).
English (and Frisian) and to an extent Dutch and Scandinavian all moved together. German stayed static with Gothic in 'b'. Speaking of which, German changed Germanic 'w' to 'b' as well (farwo - > Farbe).
PGmc long 'o' was altered to long 'u' in both German and English, and in that order, German first, English much later (remember: our calibration is against PGmc; not "Germanic sounds")
'g' before front vowels to /j/ is not major. Many Germanic leids feature this (English, Frisian, Swedish, etc).
'u' is still like 'u' in "put" in many English dialects.
I will give you this though: we lost 'k' and 'g' before 'n' ("knee", "gnaw")
But again, when a Dutchman speaks English, or a Norwegian speaks English, it doesn't sound as frempt as when a German or an Austrian speaks English. They sounds like they'd just as well be from Mars imo.
English (and Frisian) and to an extent Dutch and Scandinavian all moved together. German stayed static with Gothic in 'b'. Speaking of which, German changed Germanic 'w' to 'b' as well (farwo - > Farbe).
PGmc long 'o' was altered to long 'u' in both German and English, and in that order, German first, English much later (remember: our calibration is against PGmc; not "Germanic sounds")
'g' before front vowels to /j/ is not major. Many Germanic leids feature this (English, Frisian, Swedish, etc).
'u' is still like 'u' in "put" in many English dialects.
I will give you this though: we lost 'k' and 'g' before 'n' ("knee", "gnaw")
But again, when a Dutchman speaks English, or a Norwegian speaks English, it doesn't sound as frempt as when a German or an Austrian speaks English. They sounds like they'd just as well be from Mars imo.
<<Speaking of which, German changed Germanic 'w' to 'b' as well (farwo - > Farbe).
>>
I didn't see this before, but maybe this is true:
it's possible that OHG actually changed PGmc 'b' to 'v' then back to 'b', in the same way that 'w' > 'v' > 'b'
it happened with PGmc 'ai' ('ai' > 'ei' > 'ai'[written 'ei'])
any thoughts?
>>
I didn't see this before, but maybe this is true:
it's possible that OHG actually changed PGmc 'b' to 'v' then back to 'b', in the same way that 'w' > 'v' > 'b'
it happened with PGmc 'ai' ('ai' > 'ei' > 'ai'[written 'ei'])
any thoughts?
Please don't ignore what I've posted, because I think it's very noteworthy. Will somebody comment on my posts at the end of page 22?
"But again, when a Dutchman speaks English, or a Norwegian speaks English, it doesn't sound as frempt as when a German or an Austrian speaks English. They sounds like they'd just as well be from Mars imo."
How can you say that? Listen to Patrick Stewart. I mentioned him before. You CANNOT say he doesn't sound German! At least the English accent sounds German, but that may not quite be what you meant.
shime
swoft
shrade
smean
swile
brecken
dright
nout
insnead
sneither
swound
drog
coum
How can you say that? Listen to Patrick Stewart. I mentioned him before. You CANNOT say he doesn't sound German! At least the English accent sounds German, but that may not quite be what you meant.
shime
swoft
shrade
smean
swile
brecken
dright
nout
insnead
sneither
swound
drog
coum
<<How can you say that? Listen to Patrick Stewart. I mentioned him before. You CANNOT say he doesn't sound German! At least the English accent sounds German, but that may not quite be what you meant.
>>
hmm
Patrick Stewart doesn't sound German to me. He sounds English.
Wolfgang Puck and Arnold Schwarzenegger sound typically German (even though they are Austrian).
>>
hmm
Patrick Stewart doesn't sound German to me. He sounds English.
Wolfgang Puck and Arnold Schwarzenegger sound typically German (even though they are Austrian).
"hmm
Patrick Stewart doesn't sound German to me. He sounds English.
Wolfgang Puck and Arnold Schwarzenegger sound typically German (even though they are Austrian)."
Yeah, Patrick Stewart does sound English, and that's my point, that the English accent, maybe especially his particular English accent, sounds very German. It's actually odd that you mentioned Arnold Schwarzenegger, because in my other post, I said Patrick Stewart sounds like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Don't you think both of them would pronounce California "Cal-i-foahn-ee-a?" ha ha (love both accents)
Patrick Stewart doesn't sound German to me. He sounds English.
Wolfgang Puck and Arnold Schwarzenegger sound typically German (even though they are Austrian)."
Yeah, Patrick Stewart does sound English, and that's my point, that the English accent, maybe especially his particular English accent, sounds very German. It's actually odd that you mentioned Arnold Schwarzenegger, because in my other post, I said Patrick Stewart sounds like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Don't you think both of them would pronounce California "Cal-i-foahn-ee-a?" ha ha (love both accents)
A true germanic pronouciation would come from someone that speaks lowland scots//// English rescent sound have only occured in the last 500 years since modern english began// The other man reason english varies from old saxon is that we have grammtical simplicafication like the norsk.
You can't have a conversation about german and english only you gotta bring in dutch and icelandic aswell. German in the written form is very traditional however spoken form in vary differnent.. A swiss can't be understund by someone from the north of germany despite 150 years of them being under one written language// Just compare dutch and german you hear some fundamental strange ness that german has. Dutch sounds much simliar to english and german is sort of in between And please don't mention the effects celts had on english without mentioning the effect slavs and other central europeans had on deutsch.
I love german but you cant tell me there is something strange within its pronucation that is different from all other germanic languages. Theres a thickness to the speach that no other language has ,, it almost sounds like dutch spoken by a russian or something like that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnwFifL_2lI&feature=related
listen to this and try to argue that german sounds far more germanic than english
You can't have a conversation about german and english only you gotta bring in dutch and icelandic aswell. German in the written form is very traditional however spoken form in vary differnent.. A swiss can't be understund by someone from the north of germany despite 150 years of them being under one written language// Just compare dutch and german you hear some fundamental strange ness that german has. Dutch sounds much simliar to english and german is sort of in between And please don't mention the effects celts had on english without mentioning the effect slavs and other central europeans had on deutsch.
I love german but you cant tell me there is something strange within its pronucation that is different from all other germanic languages. Theres a thickness to the speach that no other language has ,, it almost sounds like dutch spoken by a russian or something like that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnwFifL_2lI&feature=related
listen to this and try to argue that german sounds far more germanic than english
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYPENrMNHF0&feature=related
Listen to this it's confusing when there speakin icelandic or english. You think if they slipped in german a italian would notice? Most americans would assume there speaking irish. And say wow how celtic british english is.
Icelandic with german and english form a triangle, Each pair has simliarities in there germanic ness. The big problem in the Germanic family is the name which suggests that german has the strongest qulaities. Granted its grammar is// however its has as signinicant sound changes as any other. Its harsh thickness can be contrast with icelandic and english which when spoken by rural brit have a soft rymthic almost celtic feel to it.
German rarely sounds rythmic like icelandic or soft rural english accents offten do.
If it were called the runic language family no confusion would ever be made. Old german had the grammar of german with a less harsh and
straight sound of german. It had a very rythmic sing song sound to it like swedish.
Listen to this it's confusing when there speakin icelandic or english. You think if they slipped in german a italian would notice? Most americans would assume there speaking irish. And say wow how celtic british english is.
Icelandic with german and english form a triangle, Each pair has simliarities in there germanic ness. The big problem in the Germanic family is the name which suggests that german has the strongest qulaities. Granted its grammar is// however its has as signinicant sound changes as any other. Its harsh thickness can be contrast with icelandic and english which when spoken by rural brit have a soft rymthic almost celtic feel to it.
German rarely sounds rythmic like icelandic or soft rural english accents offten do.
If it were called the runic language family no confusion would ever be made. Old german had the grammar of german with a less harsh and
straight sound of german. It had a very rythmic sing song sound to it like swedish.
" 'u' is still like 'u' in "put" in many English dialects."
Now, you come with some English dialects that preserved this and that. In the same way, there are thousands of German dialects where 'pf' is absent, even in southern regions of Germany (appel, parrer, perd in Saarländisch).
"'g' before front vowels to /j/ is not major."
Why not? Are sounds as /d͡ʒ/ and /ʒ/ more major, then?
"I will give you this though: we lost 'k' and 'g' before 'n' ("knee", "gnaw") "
Right. Though, you forgot the Great Vowel Shift, which affected English the most, the Anglo-Frisian brightening (a, ā were fronted to /æ, æː/), the palatalization of Proto-Germanic k (cheese - kasjus - käse), vowel breaking, and the Ingvaeonic nasal spirant law (soft - samft - sanft).
"But again, when a Dutchman speaks English, or a Norwegian speaks English, it doesn't sound as frempt as when a German or an Austrian speaks English."
You're not being objective here. The average Dutch or Norwegian obviously speaks better English for other reasons.
"Well, of course English has changed, but German has changed more (High German Consonant Shift)."
Actually, German is more conservative than English overall, not only in phonology, especially regarding its vocabulary.
Ironically, you take farwo (Farbe) as an example, an expression which doesn't even exist in English. Furthermore you use Germanic words like frempt or leid, words that are rather frempt to native English speakers, whereas a German speaker doesn't need to look into a dictionary to just guess their meaning.
Now, you come with some English dialects that preserved this and that. In the same way, there are thousands of German dialects where 'pf' is absent, even in southern regions of Germany (appel, parrer, perd in Saarländisch).
"'g' before front vowels to /j/ is not major."
Why not? Are sounds as /d͡ʒ/ and /ʒ/ more major, then?
"I will give you this though: we lost 'k' and 'g' before 'n' ("knee", "gnaw") "
Right. Though, you forgot the Great Vowel Shift, which affected English the most, the Anglo-Frisian brightening (a, ā were fronted to /æ, æː/), the palatalization of Proto-Germanic k (cheese - kasjus - käse), vowel breaking, and the Ingvaeonic nasal spirant law (soft - samft - sanft).
"But again, when a Dutchman speaks English, or a Norwegian speaks English, it doesn't sound as frempt as when a German or an Austrian speaks English."
You're not being objective here. The average Dutch or Norwegian obviously speaks better English for other reasons.
"Well, of course English has changed, but German has changed more (High German Consonant Shift)."
Actually, German is more conservative than English overall, not only in phonology, especially regarding its vocabulary.
Ironically, you take farwo (Farbe) as an example, an expression which doesn't even exist in English. Furthermore you use Germanic words like frempt or leid, words that are rather frempt to native English speakers, whereas a German speaker doesn't need to look into a dictionary to just guess their meaning.
Vinlander, do you also have some videos with a person speaking germanic, since you seem to know how it sounded?
just to inform you, dutch is much harsher than german!
icelandic sounds a bit slavic, but more like german than english.
just to inform you, dutch is much harsher than german!
icelandic sounds a bit slavic, but more like german than english.
No one knows what germanic sounded like but its not hard to assume german is favorite as a direct descendant by most people. Yet when it leaves out traits like th which is rather important. Just try reading shakespear and drop all the th's it would sound rather strange. Then which all the S's with Z's and W to V, Villiam ZakeZear would sound like martian talk.
here is a line from hamlet
Sir, in my heart there was a kind of fighting
That would not let me sleep. Methought I lay
Worse than the mutines in the bilboes. Rashly—
Zir in mi hart Dare Vas a kind of Fighting
Dat vud not let mi Zleep. MeDot I lay
Vorse dan da mutlines in Da bilboes Rashly
Oh wow what a simple trick and it looks like german why did we
ever drop those traits only than would we sound like german. :D
here is a line from hamlet
Sir, in my heart there was a kind of fighting
That would not let me sleep. Methought I lay
Worse than the mutines in the bilboes. Rashly—
Zir in mi hart Dare Vas a kind of Fighting
Dat vud not let mi Zleep. MeDot I lay
Vorse dan da mutlines in Da bilboes Rashly
Oh wow what a simple trick and it looks like german why did we
ever drop those traits only than would we sound like german. :D