Caspian,
Sounds correct how?
Sounds correct how?
Is there any underlying rule for usage of I/me/myself?
<< "Me and him went to the store."
The above sentence sounds natural to native speakers >>
I mean this - you're wrong. It sounds completely clumsy, inarticulate and incorrect to any educated native speaker of English.
The above sentence sounds natural to native speakers >>
I mean this - you're wrong. It sounds completely clumsy, inarticulate and incorrect to any educated native speaker of English.
Caspian,
And you mean that it sounds wrong to prescriptivists, but not descriptivists.
And you mean that it sounds wrong to prescriptivists, but not descriptivists.
No - I mean it sounds wrong to native speakers. Grammar is either right or wrong - there's no in-between. And using a direct object pronoun when you should be using the nominative pronoun is wrong. That's it!
<<And you mean that it sounds wrong to prescriptivists, but not descriptivists.>>
Not necessarily. I can be a descriptivist (i.e. recognizing other dialectal forms as legitimate variants) while at the same time finding something "wrong" (i.e. ungrammatical) within the context of my own dialect. Some speakers might find "me and him" natural (at least as an informal variant); others might not.
Not necessarily. I can be a descriptivist (i.e. recognizing other dialectal forms as legitimate variants) while at the same time finding something "wrong" (i.e. ungrammatical) within the context of my own dialect. Some speakers might find "me and him" natural (at least as an informal variant); others might not.
I should say, though, that Caspian is equally mistaken in assuming that there's an ironclad universal grammar and that there's some kind of unanimity among educated native speakers. The forms that one finds correct depend on one's dialect (as well as formality), and dialects evolve over time. We can already look at another instance where this supposed "no in-between" rule of pronoun case is violated: almost all native speakers prefer "It's me" to "It is I", to the extent that the latter (more prescriptively correct) form may strike them as prohibitively stilted and unnatural.
<<almost all native speakers prefer "It's me" to "It is I", to the extent that the latter (more prescriptively correct) form may strike them as prohibitively stilted and unnatural.>>
Which in turn makes "it is I" wrong, according to the "real grammar", the one that takes account of how language really works.
Caspian, leave prescriptive grammar alone. Prescriptive grammar is completely meaningless, it's a lie, it's a joke, it's a fairy tale. It's pseudo-science, so it should be called pseudo-grammar. So, any serious discussion about language can't involve prescriptive pseudo-grammar.
So, seriously, wouldn't everyone agree that "It is I" is wrong? I mean, who the hell says it? If anyone actually ever says it, they are just unnaturally forcing themselves to follow prescriptive grammar, I guess.
Which in turn makes "it is I" wrong, according to the "real grammar", the one that takes account of how language really works.
Caspian, leave prescriptive grammar alone. Prescriptive grammar is completely meaningless, it's a lie, it's a joke, it's a fairy tale. It's pseudo-science, so it should be called pseudo-grammar. So, any serious discussion about language can't involve prescriptive pseudo-grammar.
So, seriously, wouldn't everyone agree that "It is I" is wrong? I mean, who the hell says it? If anyone actually ever says it, they are just unnaturally forcing themselves to follow prescriptive grammar, I guess.
But it's not wrong, it's correct. I say it, it's the correct way! It's not unnatural, it's correct.
I believe "it's me" is something English has borrowed from the Romance languages (c'est moi) as opposed to Germanic (das bin ich).
If you had a quid coin handed to you each time you heard someone in the UK reply "It is I!" to the query: "Who's there knocking on our door?" then I'm afraid you would be going empty handed and hungry to bed each night.
Haha, that's true - but still, the use of 'me and him' in nominative is just wrong!
>>I believe "it's me" is something English has borrowed from the Romance languages (c'est moi) as opposed to Germanic (das bin ich).<<
I think it is more just a matter in that predicative verbs in English now treat case in the way that other verbs do, rather than having the special case where the predicate noun is nominative rather than oblique in case, unlike direct and indirect objects for normal verbs.
I think it is more just a matter in that predicative verbs in English now treat case in the way that other verbs do, rather than having the special case where the predicate noun is nominative rather than oblique in case, unlike direct and indirect objects for normal verbs.
<<Grammar is either right or wrong - there's no in-between.>>
Thou art incorrect.
Thou art incorrect.
I noticed that someone asked about when to use "himself" versus "hisself". Always use "himself".
I'm tempted to say that "hisself" is not a word. I know descriptivists will squawk and say that people really do use the word, and they are correct. But the word carries a stigma of being a low-class/ignorant/uneducated usage. Basically, nobody will look down on you if you say "himself", but many people will if you use "hisself".
I'm tempted to say that "hisself" is not a word. I know descriptivists will squawk and say that people really do use the word, and they are correct. But the word carries a stigma of being a low-class/ignorant/uneducated usage. Basically, nobody will look down on you if you say "himself", but many people will if you use "hisself".
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