Help with ifs

Have I go the meaning and/or uses of these right?

1. If you will give him money, he'll continue to ask.

(Insistence is expressed using "will" in the "if-clause")

2. If you would help me clean up, we could go out sooner.

(Request expressed by using "would" in the "if-clause")

If you should see him, let him know I'm thinking of him.

(Politeness expressed by using "should" in the "if-clause)

<<1. If you will give him money, he'll continue to ask.
>>

Using 'if' in conjunction with the future 'will' sounds extremely odd to native speakers. We normally use the future tense without the 'will' saying "If you give him money (future subjunctive), he'll continue to ask [--i.e. he'll keep on asking]"

<<2. If you would help me clean up, we could go out sooner. >>
Perfect.


<<If you should see him, let him know I'm thinking of him. >>
If you are wanting to sound British, Yes. If American, then No. Either way, it is fine grammatically. In the US, we would leave 'should' out and say: "If you see him, let him know I'm thinking of him."

< Using 'if' in conjunction with the future 'will' sounds extremely odd to native speakers. >

In BrE you would hear it, e.g. in a reproach to a child:

1. Well, if you *will* do X, then of course Y will happen.

The stressed "will" + "do" expresses "insist on doing".

MrP

<<1. Well, if you *will* do X, then of course Y will happen.

The stressed "will" + "do" expresses "insist on doing".
>>



Yes, but isn't this an example of 'voluntary-will' rather than 'future-will'?

i.e. "Well, if you *want to* do X, then of course Y will happen"?

Here is another: "If you will keep your watch half an hour slow it is hardly surprising that you are late for your appointments."

<Yes, but isn't this an example of 'voluntary-will' rather than 'future-will'?>

Yes; I think that was MollyB's point in the original post, where he said:

<Insistence is expressed using "will" in the "if-clause">

Best wishes,

MrP

<<Here is another: "If you will keep your watch half an hour slow it is hardly surprising that you are late for your appointments." >>

Now that sounds odd. A little bit padded too.

"If you will keep your watch half an hour slow..." --that is also volition-will, not purely future. A pure future is something like: "If you are going to keep your watch half an hour slow..." which has a totally different meaning.

"If you will keep..." is closer to "If you are willing to keep your watch half an hour slow..."

<<it is hardly surprising that you are late for your appointments.>>

I would make that "it would be hardly surprising that you('d) be late for your appointments"

Honestly, if I had to say this:
"If you would set your watch to be a half an hour behind, it would surprise me if you were ever late for your appointments"



<<Yes; I think that was MollyB's point in the original post, where he said:
<Insistence is expressed using "will" in the "if-clause"> >>

I don't think "insistence" means quite the same thing as "volition", rather the opposite. But thanks anyway MrP.

Look here MollyB...

Habits

“Will” is used for describing irritating habits in the present such as:

He will pick his teeth during meetings. (Note that you can’t use the contraction ’ll since “will” is stressed in the spoken form.)

http://www.britishcouncil.org/burma-library-services-learn-english-online-english-language-article-will-you-or-would-you.htm

Note, Leasnam, that says "in the present".

<<Note, Leasnam, that says "in the present". >>

Yes, I see that. This is because the auxillary 'will' was not originally associated with future tense, but had a present tense meaning of "want to". It is from this meaning that all other senses arose: volition, habits, and even future.