pin-pen nonmerged people, do pin-pen merged people ever perceive your /En/ as /{n/? I live in a state that where pin-pen merging is the norm and they have at times perceived my /En/ as /{n/. For instance, someone thought I was saying "pan" when I was saying "pen".
pin-pen nonmerged people, do pin-pen merged people ever perc
I should say that I even repeated the word "pen" to them and they still heard it as "pan".
You must have the California vowel shift then that makes you /E/ sound like [æ]. If you have an extreme CVS, then your pin would sound like "pen"--which would sound like pVn (where V is a vowel that is either e or i) to a merged person. Otherwise if you just have the first stages of the shift, your pin will still sound like pVn to a merged person.
If someone doesn't have the CVS, then no, their pen would never be perceived as "pan". But really it has little to do with the p-p merger, as other people, unless they had the California vowel shift themselves, would perceive your lowered /E/ as an "a" sound. So, anyway if you do pronounce pen in a way that sounds like pan to some people, then you are definitely from the far West. If you moved to another Western state or to Canada, your pen->pan shift would be less noticeable, as many Westerners have it. However, moving anywhere else, especially NCVS shofted areas like the Midwest or Southern shifted areas, the people there would really notice your pen->pan shift. Even other Westerners would often pick up on it. Your best bet is to try to speak with very conservative, General American vowels, and you will be understood better by people from different areas. However pin-pen merged people will of course not be able to distinguish your pin and pen, because they can't hear the difference.
Or you could keep your CVS, and explain to people:
I pronounce pee I enn as pin
I pronounce pee ee enn as pan
And
I pronounce pee ay (as in play) enn as pay-uhn.
Or you could keep your CVS, and explain to people:
I pronounce pee I enn as pin
I pronounce pee ee enn as pan
And
I pronounce pee ay (as in play) enn as pay-uhn.
Do you (and the person you were talking to) pronounce "pan" the same as "pawn"? If you say "pen" and ask them to repeat it back to you, do they say "pan"?
I pronounce "pawn" with [a]
"pen" [E]
"pin" [I]
"pun" [V]
I can't find a vowel that corresponds to how I pronounce "pan". Can anyone help? You can get the pronounciation here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pan
I pronounce "pawn" with [a]
"pen" [E]
"pin" [I]
"pun" [V]
I can't find a vowel that corresponds to how I pronounce "pan". Can anyone help? You can get the pronounciation here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pan
I'm sure you don't pronounce pawn as [a] unless you have a really weird dialect. If you have the cot-caught merger and generally have an unrounded vowel, then it would be [A]. As for the vowel before [n], many people raise or diphthongize it, so perhaps [e@] or [i@] or something like that.
>> Do you (and the person you were talking to) pronounce "pan" the same as "pawn <<
There is no pan-pawn merger. There is a *pon-pawn merger where "pon" has the DON vowel. Obviously the speaker is pon-pawn merged, as the only people with the California or Canadian vowel shifts are Westerners, and virtually all Westerners have that merger. But nobody would merge pan and pawn in the West.
>> Do you (and the person you were talking to) pronounce "pan" the same as "pawn <<
There is no pan-pawn merger. There is a *pon-pawn merger where "pon" has the DON vowel. Obviously the speaker is pon-pawn merged, as the only people with the California or Canadian vowel shifts are Westerners, and virtually all Westerners have that merger. But nobody would merge pan and pawn in the West.
Well, hmm, don't know what you mean because I'm from California and I can tell you for sure we don't pronounce "pen" anywhere near like "pan". If anything, in fast speech it become "pin".
It's a vowel shift. Ir's not that your "e" will sound like *your* "a" but rather the "a" of people without the shift (older people and people from other areas). Your "a" is shifting towards another vowel to keep it distinct. It's almost as hard to hear a vowel shift that you have as it is to hear a merger such as the cot caught merger, which, believe it ot not were pronounced differently in California less than 100 years ago, but are now pronounced identically by nearly all native Californians.
<<I'm sure you don't pronounce pawn as [a] unless you have a really weird dialect. If you have the cot-caught merger and generally have an unrounded vowel, then it would be [A]. >>
My understanding is that I would be labeled cot-caught merged, but I distinguish [A] and [o]. [a] and [A] are merged for me, so your statement that I would pronounce it with [A] rather than [a] doesn't make much sense. I'm rather confused by descriptions of the "cot-caught merger"; as far as I can tell, I am not unusual among California speaker in merging [a] and [A] but not [A] and [o]. So maybe there's a discrepancy as to what sounds correspond to the symbols [a], [A], and [o]. Here's the IPA's audio files: http://web.uvic.ca/ling/resources/ipa/charts/IPAlab/IPAlab.htm
Do you have any audio files?
<<There is no pan-pawn merger. >>
From Narc's post, I get the impression that he considers the vowel in "pan" to be [{]. But I hear that vowel as being allophonic with [a]. So there does appear to be a merger. The vowel in "pan" is different from the one in "pawn" for me, but [{] is not the vowel in "pan".
My understanding is that I would be labeled cot-caught merged, but I distinguish [A] and [o]. [a] and [A] are merged for me, so your statement that I would pronounce it with [A] rather than [a] doesn't make much sense. I'm rather confused by descriptions of the "cot-caught merger"; as far as I can tell, I am not unusual among California speaker in merging [a] and [A] but not [A] and [o]. So maybe there's a discrepancy as to what sounds correspond to the symbols [a], [A], and [o]. Here's the IPA's audio files: http://web.uvic.ca/ling/resources/ipa/charts/IPAlab/IPAlab.htm
Do you have any audio files?
<<There is no pan-pawn merger. >>
From Narc's post, I get the impression that he considers the vowel in "pan" to be [{]. But I hear that vowel as being allophonic with [a]. So there does appear to be a merger. The vowel in "pan" is different from the one in "pawn" for me, but [{] is not the vowel in "pan".
I was using XSAMPA symbols (IPA for computers)
Let me define the symbols better:
[a] Does not exist in General American English. Exists in Canadian and California vowel shifted dialects from /{/ shifting to /a/. Also like how Southerners pronounce "I". Sounds like "ah" (/A/) to people that don't have the vowel shift, although this is incorrect. Also how NCVS shifted Midwesterners pronounce "mop": /mAp/ -> [map].
[A] The cot vowel for unshifted speakers (General American). Merged with [O] (usually realized as [Q] the caught vowel) for c-c merged speakers.
[Q] the CAUGHT vowel /O/.
[{] the ASH vowel
Let me define the symbols better:
[a] Does not exist in General American English. Exists in Canadian and California vowel shifted dialects from /{/ shifting to /a/. Also like how Southerners pronounce "I". Sounds like "ah" (/A/) to people that don't have the vowel shift, although this is incorrect. Also how NCVS shifted Midwesterners pronounce "mop": /mAp/ -> [map].
[A] The cot vowel for unshifted speakers (General American). Merged with [O] (usually realized as [Q] the caught vowel) for c-c merged speakers.
[Q] the CAUGHT vowel /O/.
[{] the ASH vowel
Pan is /p{n/ phonologically. However many dialects raise and/or diphthongize /{/ before nasals. So it sounds like how a NCVS speaker from, say, Chicago, would say all their ASH vowels. It can vary. Say kee-yuht fast, and that'll give you an idea of what is sounds like.
>> But I hear that vowel as being allophonic with [a] <<
Hmm. Are we defining [a] the same way? In other words like the Italian vowel in "pasta", but not the English vowel in pasta which is further bback in the mouth: [A].
Unless you're from Vancouver, I doubt you use [a] for /{/ before nasals. Even there it's pretty rare, and is often diphthongized like in other places. But I do remember reading an article that said it was a characteristic of Lower Mainland BC to pronounce it like that sometimes. In any event, in Canada and the Western US, there is a smaller difference between the ASH vowel before nasals vs. before other consonants than other places. And in Canada and parts of the Northwestern and Northern US, it is especially raised before /g/
>> But I hear that vowel as being allophonic with [a] <<
Hmm. Are we defining [a] the same way? In other words like the Italian vowel in "pasta", but not the English vowel in pasta which is further bback in the mouth: [A].
Unless you're from Vancouver, I doubt you use [a] for /{/ before nasals. Even there it's pretty rare, and is often diphthongized like in other places. But I do remember reading an article that said it was a characteristic of Lower Mainland BC to pronounce it like that sometimes. In any event, in Canada and the Western US, there is a smaller difference between the ASH vowel before nasals vs. before other consonants than other places. And in Canada and parts of the Northwestern and Northern US, it is especially raised before /g/
It is funny you mention this, as I once met someone named Ben, who obviously had something of a PIN-PEN merger.
The conversation went something like this:
"Nice to meet you, Ben," I said.
"Likewise, but it is BEN not BAN," he replied.
"That's what I said--BEN."
"Oh, it sounded like you said BAN."
I often wonder if he would have handed me a pan if I asked to borrow a pen.
The conversation went something like this:
"Nice to meet you, Ben," I said.
"Likewise, but it is BEN not BAN," he replied.
"That's what I said--BEN."
"Oh, it sounded like you said BAN."
I often wonder if he would have handed me a pan if I asked to borrow a pen.
It's not just pin-pen merged people. If you used a vowel approaching [{] (e.g. California or Canadian vowel shifted), I would think you were saying "ban". Another interesting story. I knew someone who was pin-pen merged, and for the longest time I thought he had a Vietnamese name or something, because he introduced himself as "Bin". I called him "Bin" for about a year, until one time I wrote down his name and he started laughing. He said "no, it's spelt bee ee in".