I've noticed that Argentinians and Spanish speakers from other parts in America pronounce a very sibilant S compared to European Spanish S, that sounds somewhere between English S and SH. What do you think?.
Is S more sibilant in American Spanish than in Castilian?
The Spanish S sounds somewhat like the English S, nonetheless some countries and some regions pronounce it a bit different, for example, some people in Spain (not all) pronounce it like an SH, in some other regions like Andalusia and the Canary Islands, most of the times they don't pronounce it at all.
In Latin American countries it varies, most tend to skip a few S's while speaking; some others barely ever pronounce them, only Mexico and Colombia pronounce all letters all the time.
Despites this, all Spanish speaking countries know that they should be pronounced and how they should be pronounced, so even people who don't do so, knows they have to do it if they want to speak correctly.
In Latin American countries it varies, most tend to skip a few S's while speaking; some others barely ever pronounce them, only Mexico and Colombia pronounce all letters all the time.
Despites this, all Spanish speaking countries know that they should be pronounced and how they should be pronounced, so even people who don't do so, knows they have to do it if they want to speak correctly.
American Spanish and Brazilian pronounce s like in English,European Portuguese and "some people in Spain"pronounce it like "sh".
I wrote something regarding this matter in another thread a while ago:
http://antimoon.com/forum/t14184.htm
<<Many Spaniards pronounce the second consonant in "casa" different from an English s.
But it's not [ɕ] (there's nothing palatal about it) and I wouldn't call it a lisp, either. It's an apical [s], which sounds quite different from the laminal [s] that's found in English, German, Italian, French, Latin American Spanish, etc. because it is articulated with the tip of the tongue (apical) instead of its blade (laminal).
Latin American Spanish:
casa - laminal/"English" [s]
caza - laminal/"English" [s]
Peninsular Spanish:
casa - apical [s]
caza - [θ] ("th") >>
In other words: I disagree with you. It's the European Spanish S that sounds different from the English S.
Many Argentines do however pronounce Y and LL like an English SH. Maybe that's what you were hearing.
http://antimoon.com/forum/t14184.htm
<<Many Spaniards pronounce the second consonant in "casa" different from an English s.
But it's not [ɕ] (there's nothing palatal about it) and I wouldn't call it a lisp, either. It's an apical [s], which sounds quite different from the laminal [s] that's found in English, German, Italian, French, Latin American Spanish, etc. because it is articulated with the tip of the tongue (apical) instead of its blade (laminal).
Latin American Spanish:
casa - laminal/"English" [s]
caza - laminal/"English" [s]
Peninsular Spanish:
casa - apical [s]
caza - [θ] ("th") >>
In other words: I disagree with you. It's the European Spanish S that sounds different from the English S.
Many Argentines do however pronounce Y and LL like an English SH. Maybe that's what you were hearing.
In Northern Spain (from Madrid northward), S can sound like a slightly palatalized S or slushy S: [ś], slight sh: fieśta, as in Venetian dialect of Italian.
In Madrid people pronounce s like [s]. Aside from Galicia I don't know many parts where they pronounce s that way.
There are many TV reporters and Commentators on TVE that have that slushy s sound so it has to be more common than anybody is letting us believe. Heck I've even heard that slushy s sound in many of the Peninsular Spanish films I've seen.
I agree with the fact that Spanish (Castillian ) S is slushy.
Most books in Italy compare it to the Venetian s which is like Italian sc[i]:
I've heard many newscasters on Canal 24Horas with that ''shi sheñor'' pronunciation, it's common in: Castilla & León, Cantabria & Asturias.
Most books in Italy compare it to the Venetian s which is like Italian sc[i]:
I've heard many newscasters on Canal 24Horas with that ''shi sheñor'' pronunciation, it's common in: Castilla & León, Cantabria & Asturias.
<<American Spanish and Brazilian pronounce s like in English,European Portuguese and "some people in Spain"pronounce it like "sh". >>
Pronunciation of /s/ in Brazil is heavily dialectal. In some places final -s is like english /sh/, in others the /sh/ sound occur only in -st- (and some other consonants clusters I can't remember right now), in others it is just an aspiration like english /h/, and yet in others final -s is rarely spoken ('as *casa', '*falamo' instead of 'as casas', 'falamos').
Pronunciation of /s/ in Brazil is heavily dialectal. In some places final -s is like english /sh/, in others the /sh/ sound occur only in -st- (and some other consonants clusters I can't remember right now), in others it is just an aspiration like english /h/, and yet in others final -s is rarely spoken ('as *casa', '*falamo' instead of 'as casas', 'falamos').
Pronunciation of /s/ in Brazil is heavily dialectal.
...
Not really.
90% of Brazilians use a sibilant s [s].
Palatalized s (sh) is considered dialectal, it is obligatory only in 3 cities in Brazil: Rio, Belém and Manaus.
In the Rio State, there is no palatalization outside of Rio-Niterói-Campos region, for example in Paraty, Volta Redonda, Barra Mansa, Resende they say festa and not feshta.
In other parts of Southeast (SP, MG, ES) s is alway s. (no sh's).
In South and Midwest too.
On national Globo NEWS programs, palatalization is forbidden.
Also, dubbing of foreign movies prefers sibilant s.
In Northeast, situation is complex:
1) Bahia, the south and central parts of the state (up to Santo Amaro, close to Salvador) is sibilant, not palatalizing
2) Northern Bahia is palatalizing only -St- but sibilant pronunciation has prestige with some users, when a palatalization DOES accure it's always inside the word in -St- cluster: festa or feshta, festas or feshtas, but never feshtash, never mezhmo, veshpa...
3) in Salvador, it varies a lot, depending where the person is from, those who came from Northern Bahia tend to use sh, persons from Central and Southern Bahia don't use sh; there are many soteropolitanos who never use palatalized sh's only s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-kYfpk2aUQ
overall the frequency of palatalization of r in Salvador is around 30%, which is low compared to 90% in RJ city, and 100 % in Portugal
4) in Other states of Northeast, Recife has 60% of palatalization of sibilants, the interior of Northeast is virtually sibilant and in Rio Grande do Norte and Paraíba states there are many sibilant zones on the coast too.
But, in Upper Northeast only -St- is normally affected, which is something like QUESSTION and QUESHTION in English...People don't here a difference in the -St- segment whether is S or SH, it's all the same...
...
Not really.
90% of Brazilians use a sibilant s [s].
Palatalized s (sh) is considered dialectal, it is obligatory only in 3 cities in Brazil: Rio, Belém and Manaus.
In the Rio State, there is no palatalization outside of Rio-Niterói-Campos region, for example in Paraty, Volta Redonda, Barra Mansa, Resende they say festa and not feshta.
In other parts of Southeast (SP, MG, ES) s is alway s. (no sh's).
In South and Midwest too.
On national Globo NEWS programs, palatalization is forbidden.
Also, dubbing of foreign movies prefers sibilant s.
In Northeast, situation is complex:
1) Bahia, the south and central parts of the state (up to Santo Amaro, close to Salvador) is sibilant, not palatalizing
2) Northern Bahia is palatalizing only -St- but sibilant pronunciation has prestige with some users, when a palatalization DOES accure it's always inside the word in -St- cluster: festa or feshta, festas or feshtas, but never feshtash, never mezhmo, veshpa...
3) in Salvador, it varies a lot, depending where the person is from, those who came from Northern Bahia tend to use sh, persons from Central and Southern Bahia don't use sh; there are many soteropolitanos who never use palatalized sh's only s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-kYfpk2aUQ
overall the frequency of palatalization of r in Salvador is around 30%, which is low compared to 90% in RJ city, and 100 % in Portugal
4) in Other states of Northeast, Recife has 60% of palatalization of sibilants, the interior of Northeast is virtually sibilant and in Rio Grande do Norte and Paraíba states there are many sibilant zones on the coast too.
But, in Upper Northeast only -St- is normally affected, which is something like QUESSTION and QUESHTION in English...People don't here a difference in the -St- segment whether is S or SH, it's all the same...