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classification of the romance languages
I found this interesting graphic
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Romance-lg-classification-en.png what do you think about?
Représentation satisfaisante.
Evidemment, reste toujours le classique problème posé par l'Italie du Nord, coeur du dispositif, où il est un peu artificiel de mettre en ensemble gallo-italique et vénitien, sans parler de l'istriote, et où on ne peut ignorer les affinités du groupe rhéto-roman avec l'occitan, même s'ils ne voisinent pas géographiquement. Mais globalement, ce graphe est à mon humble avis le meilleur possible.
Vedo che l'unica lingua citata della "romania submersa" è il dalmatico. In realtà esistevano altre lingue romanze, soprattutto in Africa del nord e nella Germania occidentale. Sono daccordo con PARISIEN sul fatto che il veneto non sia gallo italico. Mi parrebbe più logico associarlo all'istriota, anche se il "lombardo orientale" ne condivide alcune caratteristiche.
Wikipedia ha comunque una visione superficiale delle cose. Se si vuole approfondire è molto meglio leggersi dei libri.
Excellent grafic! But "Western Romance" should be renamed in Germano-Romance, since it is the Romance spoken in former Germanic realms. "Ibero-Romance" is rather Gothic Romance, Occitano-Romance is Frankish-Gothic-Romance, "North-Gallo-Romance" is Frankish-Romance, "Raeto-Romance" is Burgundian Romance and "Noth-Italian Romance" is not "Gallo-Italian" but Lombardic Romance. Iberians and Gauls have had no influence on the Romance dialects.
But did the Germanic languages had a significant influence on Romance dialects? At least in Portuguese we're taught that the Germanic influence was only a lexical one, mainly with words dealing with war and related activities. Arabic's influence on Portuguese and Spanish was, I believe, also limited to vocabulary and was much stronger than the Germanic one.
<<But did the Germanic languages had a significant influence on Romance dialects? At least in Portuguese we're taught that the Germanic influence was only a lexical one, mainly with words dealing with war and related activities>>
What about norte,sur/sul,oeste,este ? Or barão/ barón,marechal/mariscal? Plural ending -as,-os came from Germanic -as,-az.
<< What about norte,sur/sul,oeste,este ? Or barão/ barón,marechal/mariscal? >>
Yes, these are all words (indirectly) related to war. << Plural ending -as,-os came from Germanic -as,-az. >> Portuguese nouns and their plurals (and I think all Romance with plurals in -s) come from Latin's accusative, which we call "caso lexicogênico", not from Germanic.
<<Portuguese nouns and their plurals (and I think all Romance with plurals in -s) come from Latin's accusative, which we call "caso lexicogênico", not from Germanic. >>
Why Standard Italian,closest Romance language to Latin, is exception? It hasn't plural endings -s of nouns.
<< Why Standard Italian,closest Romance language to Latin, is exception? It hasn't plural endings -s of nouns. >>
Well, Italian's not really an exception. Other Romance languages also make plurals in vowels like Italian, Italian is just the most famous one. There's some geographical line that separates these two distinct groups of Romance languages, but I can't remember how's it called. Anyway, I think Italian plurals derive, but I'm not really sure about this, from Latin's nominative: Latin: rosa (nominative singular), rosae (nominative plural), rosam (accusative singular), rosas (accusative plural). Italian: rosa - rose Portuguese/Spanish: rosa - rosas
<< Plural ending -as,-os came from Germanic -as,-az. >>
-- Total non-sens. Ouest ramène encore ses salades frelatées... << Ibero-Romance" is rather Gothic Romance, Occitano-Romance is Frankish-Gothic-Romance, "North-Gallo-Romance" is Frankish-Romance, "Raeto-Romance" is Burgundian Romance and "Noth-Italian Romance" is not "Gallo-Italian" but Lombardic Romance. >> -- Et par le plus grand des hasards, différents peuples germaniques (Francs, Burgondes, Goths,Longobards etc.) se seraient mis d'accord pour transmettre à différentes langues romanes les mots (par ex.) "blanc" (blanco, bianco) et "guerre" (guerra), alors que les mots germaniques normaux sont "witt"-"weiss"-"white"-"hvit" et "krieg"-"krig" ??? C'est totalement absurde ! La seule hypothèse rationnelle est que, accidentellement, ces mots ont été transmis au français d'oïl, et de là ont contaminé par contigüité les autres langues romanes, roumain excepté. Si le mot espagnol "oeste" avait été repris directement du germanique "west", il aurait pris la forme "vueste" ou "gueste". "Oeste" est une adaptation du français "ouest". << Vedo che l'unica lingua citata della "romania submersa" è il dalmatico. In realtà esistevano altre lingue romanze, soprattutto in Africa del nord e nella Germania occidentale. >> -- Senz'altro perché il dalmatico aveva più rilevanza essendo anello di collegamento fra le aree italiana et balkanica, mentre gli altro componenti della 'Romania submersa' erano fenomeni periferici (quelli ipotetici di Germania e (Gran-) Bretagna erano più probabilmente forme archaiche di lingua d'Oïl). Inoltre il dalmatico è sopravissuto più a lungo, divenne estinto verso la fine del 800, ma da secoli andava sostituito dall'italiano (con palese influenza veneziana per le forme parlate). Infatti la 'Romania dalmatica' è durata fino alla pulizia etnica verificatasi lungo la costa croata nel 1945. Un caso più misterioso (anche periferico) è l'afro-romanzo. Si dice ogni tanto che sarebbe stato simile al sardo, mi pare perlomeno dubbioso. Sarebbe possibile che la 'Lingua Franca' (quella vera) ne sia un retaggio? Negli anni 1830, durante la conquista dell'Algeria, ufficiali francesi avevano notato che la conoscenza d'un vocabulario di apparenza italo-spagnola era ancora assai diffusa fra gli anziani, i capi villaggi, anche all'interno del paese. Traccie residuali di lingua franca o di afro-romanzo? Peccato che la letteratura sull'argomento è poverissima.
Tamoio Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:39 am GMT
But did the Germanic languages had a significant influence on Romance dialects? At least in Portuguese we're taught that the Germanic influence was only a lexical one, mainly with words dealing with war and related activities. Arabic's influence on Portuguese and Spanish was, I believe, also limited to vocabulary and was much stronger than the Germanic one. _____________________________ There are theories that Romance languages were created by a process of Creole formation between Latin and Germanic (Romance = deformed Latin of Germanic language speaking immigrants trying to communicate with Latin speaking autochtone population). That explains why the distribution if the different Romance languages and dialects correspond exactly to the Germanic realms formed after the migration period on the territory of the former Roman Empire.
<< the distribution if the different Romance languages and dialects correspond exactly to the Germanic realms formed after the migration period >>
-- Complètement faux !
. Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:49 am GMT
Here we go again _______________ ok ok...;-) |