The Brazilian forum started to get boring so I decided to start another discussion for everybody to talk about. History states that with a few exceptions that genetically Spanish and Portuguese people came from the nearly the same exact branch of people. The languages came from nearly all the same sources. The only differences between the two only was brought about because of divergent regionalisms that developed into languages. There is also debate of the validity of the languages being languages or just variations of a single language. Many linguist believe there is a dialectal continuum that exists between Spanish-Galician Portuguese-Portuguese. Let's talk about this and also discuss if this bickering exists across the atlantic in Latin America. I just need to change it up because the Brazilian forum was getting boring and make it more of an international discussion.
Portugal Vs. Spain bickering brothers
>>The Brazilian forum started to get boring <<
What "Brazilians Forum"? Are there sub-forums in antimoon that I don't know about? Provide a link please.
What "Brazilians Forum"? Are there sub-forums in antimoon that I don't know about? Provide a link please.
>>There is also debate of the validity of the languages being languages or just variations of a single language. Many linguist believe there is a dialectal continuum that exists between Spanish-Galician Portuguese-Portuguese. Let's talk about this<<
They are DEFINITELY different languages. Their respective grammars are just too different to be considered the same language. I think why this misconception is propagated so much is because a lot of the vocabulary is uncannily similar. But we all know that english isn't a subset of French just because english has a lot of vocabulary of french and latin origin.
They are DEFINITELY different languages. Their respective grammars are just too different to be considered the same language. I think why this misconception is propagated so much is because a lot of the vocabulary is uncannily similar. But we all know that english isn't a subset of French just because english has a lot of vocabulary of french and latin origin.
I disagree with the statement that many linguists believe there is a dialectal continuum between Portuguese and Spanish. What is true is that:
1) There is a complex diglossic situation in Galicia where more "pure" forms of Galician-Portuguese are spoken in rural areas and/or by older people, and hybridizations of Galician and Castilian tend to be spoken in larger towns and/or by younger people.
2) The "Portunhol" hybrid forms of Spanish and Portuguese are used in areas along the Uruguayan/Brazilian border.
It may have been more true in the past that there was a dialectal continuum between the two languages, when Astur-Leonese dialects were more widespread in places such as Leon and Extremadura, where they have been supplanted by Castilian.
1) There is a complex diglossic situation in Galicia where more "pure" forms of Galician-Portuguese are spoken in rural areas and/or by older people, and hybridizations of Galician and Castilian tend to be spoken in larger towns and/or by younger people.
2) The "Portunhol" hybrid forms of Spanish and Portuguese are used in areas along the Uruguayan/Brazilian border.
It may have been more true in the past that there was a dialectal continuum between the two languages, when Astur-Leonese dialects were more widespread in places such as Leon and Extremadura, where they have been supplanted by Castilian.
Origen de Portugal
A finales del siglo IX, las tierras al norte del Duero fueron intensamente pobladas por los gallegos, leones, asturianos, y tal vez mozarabes. Estos pueblos vinieron a establecer una clara diferencia entre las tierras del norte y del sur del rio Miño. En 868 se repobló Portucale y en el siglo X existia como condado del reino de León. En 1064 se reconquistó definitivamente Coimbra y hacia la ciudad vinieron gentes de todas partes. En 1095, el rey leones Alfonso VI hizo independiente al condado de Portucale, concediendolo a Enrique de Borgoña, casado con su hija bastarda Teresa. En 1128 se constituye la nacion portuguesa, que alcanza su plena conciencia al proclamar rey a don Alfonso Enriquez.
A finales del siglo IX, las tierras al norte del Duero fueron intensamente pobladas por los gallegos, leones, asturianos, y tal vez mozarabes. Estos pueblos vinieron a establecer una clara diferencia entre las tierras del norte y del sur del rio Miño. En 868 se repobló Portucale y en el siglo X existia como condado del reino de León. En 1064 se reconquistó definitivamente Coimbra y hacia la ciudad vinieron gentes de todas partes. En 1095, el rey leones Alfonso VI hizo independiente al condado de Portucale, concediendolo a Enrique de Borgoña, casado con su hija bastarda Teresa. En 1128 se constituye la nacion portuguesa, que alcanza su plena conciencia al proclamar rey a don Alfonso Enriquez.
Nacimiento y formacion de la lengua Portuguesa
La beira (region de Portugal) tuvo un papel incrementador en la formacion del portugues. Entre las regiones del Duero y del Mondego hubo unas poblaciones mezcladas con mozarabes islamizados y con musulmanes, que mantuvieron una cierta independencia con respecto al califato de cordoba y al reino de Leon. En esta region, la vida no tuvo un desarrollo brillante, pero tampoco llego a extinguirse ya que existieron monasterios y terratenientes cristianos. Durante los siglos X-XI hubo no menos de un centenar de cenobios en las diocesis de Braga, Coimbra y Oporto, que tuvieron indudable influencia en la formacion de la lengua, como lo tuvo, para la constitucion de municipios, el sentido integrador de la parroquia.
Por otra parte, la reconquista provoco una gran nivelacion de la lengua, de la que tenemos una imagen actual en la uniformidad linguistica del habla portuguesa en portugal. ademas, la reconquista fue convirtiendo en limites linguisticos cada uno de los limites estrategicos: cada rio importante (limite en las campañas liberadoras) se constituyo en separacion linguistica (asi el Duero, el Vouga y el Mondego). En la primera mitad del siglo XI se cumple el progresivo transplante, mas alla del Mondego, de las intituciones y de la lengua, elaborados en las orillas del rio Miño. Se estructura de este modo un portugues del norte y un portugues del sur, con adopcion de la lengua de los reconquistadores. Asi, por ejemplo, el sonido ch del norte fue llevado a las tierras meridionales. No obstante, la influencia del mozaraba en el portugues muy importante, tanto que para el linguista portugues S SILVA NETO, uno de los rasgos que separan el español del portugues es precisamente la desigualdad con que los mozarabes participan en cada una de tales lenguas (grande en Portugal, pequeña en Castilla).
En un estudio de conjunto sobre el lexico romanico, el portugues coincide totalmente con el español (en cincuenta casos estudiados por Rohlfs, un par de discrepancias y muy poco significativas): sin embargo es posible llevar a cabo alguna matizacion: el portugues ofrece un arcaismo mayor que el español.
La beira (region de Portugal) tuvo un papel incrementador en la formacion del portugues. Entre las regiones del Duero y del Mondego hubo unas poblaciones mezcladas con mozarabes islamizados y con musulmanes, que mantuvieron una cierta independencia con respecto al califato de cordoba y al reino de Leon. En esta region, la vida no tuvo un desarrollo brillante, pero tampoco llego a extinguirse ya que existieron monasterios y terratenientes cristianos. Durante los siglos X-XI hubo no menos de un centenar de cenobios en las diocesis de Braga, Coimbra y Oporto, que tuvieron indudable influencia en la formacion de la lengua, como lo tuvo, para la constitucion de municipios, el sentido integrador de la parroquia.
Por otra parte, la reconquista provoco una gran nivelacion de la lengua, de la que tenemos una imagen actual en la uniformidad linguistica del habla portuguesa en portugal. ademas, la reconquista fue convirtiendo en limites linguisticos cada uno de los limites estrategicos: cada rio importante (limite en las campañas liberadoras) se constituyo en separacion linguistica (asi el Duero, el Vouga y el Mondego). En la primera mitad del siglo XI se cumple el progresivo transplante, mas alla del Mondego, de las intituciones y de la lengua, elaborados en las orillas del rio Miño. Se estructura de este modo un portugues del norte y un portugues del sur, con adopcion de la lengua de los reconquistadores. Asi, por ejemplo, el sonido ch del norte fue llevado a las tierras meridionales. No obstante, la influencia del mozaraba en el portugues muy importante, tanto que para el linguista portugues S SILVA NETO, uno de los rasgos que separan el español del portugues es precisamente la desigualdad con que los mozarabes participan en cada una de tales lenguas (grande en Portugal, pequeña en Castilla).
En un estudio de conjunto sobre el lexico romanico, el portugues coincide totalmente con el español (en cincuenta casos estudiados por Rohlfs, un par de discrepancias y muy poco significativas): sin embargo es posible llevar a cabo alguna matizacion: el portugues ofrece un arcaismo mayor que el español.
I'm Portuguese, and i love spanish people and culture although we all hear things about how portuguese people hate the spanish,maybe that was true with the older people but not with the new generations. I never studied spanish in school, but i know how to speak it and understand it with no problem, due to the great similarity between the two languages. Just don't forget that Portuguese and Spanish are the two romance languages which show bigger similarities ( 89% ) when compared to French,Italian or Romanian. I never needed subtitles or dubbing to watch the spanish tv channels that are broadcasted in Portugal.
Salud y mucha alegria para el próximo año de 2006, es lo que deseo para nuestros primos Españoles y para todos que participan en este Forum.
Un Próspero año nuevo / Um próspero ano novo
Salud y mucha alegria para el próximo año de 2006, es lo que deseo para nuestros primos Españoles y para todos que participan en este Forum.
Un Próspero año nuevo / Um próspero ano novo
As for the spoken language, for a majority of us, Brazilians, it is easier to understand standard Spanish than standard Continental Portuguese (based on Lisbon speech). It would be extremely difficult (almost impossible) to write down some lyrics from a Portuguese pop song wherease i can normally write down lyrics from Mexican or Spanish pop songs.
Greetings from Guarapary and happy new Year.
Um bom Reveillon e feliz natal procês!
Greetings from Guarapary and happy new Year.
Um bom Reveillon e feliz natal procês!
As for the spoken language, for a majority of us, Brazilians, it is easier to understand standard Spanish than standard Continental Portuguese (based on Lisbon speech). It would be extremely difficult (almost impossible) to write down some lyrics from a Portuguese pop song wherease i can normally write down lyrics from Mexican or Spanish pop songs.
Greetings from Guarapary, Brazil and a very happy new Year.
Um bom Reveillon e um feliz ano novo procês!
Greetings from Guarapary, Brazil and a very happy new Year.
Um bom Reveillon e um feliz ano novo procês!
It only means you don't hear enough European Portuguese in Brazil. Imagine an American who's never heard a Scot? Does that mean they speak different languages. Certainly not! The fact is Portuguese speak the same language I do and Spaniards and other South Americans don't.
I agree with u Rio de Janeiro, the problem is the language exposition. That's why Standard Portuguese its difficult to u, Yara. Since my childhood that i have been listening to Brazilian portuguese, and to me its completely normal, even Brazilian slang.I have no difficult in translating any brazilian song, the same can be said about spanish.
sorry joe I meant to say discussion and not forum. And I did not say that I believed what I wrote I just read and heard a series of examples about what I discussed and i thought that would be interesting to discuss this.
>> another question to discuss within this discussion<<
Is it easier for a brazilian or an Eu. Portuguese person to understand Latin American Spanish (specifically non-mexican varieties) or castillian spanish. The reason I ask this that it is a fact that the varieties spoken in the Caribbean was heavily influenced by Portuguese via the Canary Islands influence this same variety is also spoken in colombia and venezuela. The reason I ask this is because my mothers side of the family (made up of both brazilians and eu. portuguese) understands more the latin american varieties than castilian spanish.
>> another question to discuss within this discussion<<
Is it easier for a brazilian or an Eu. Portuguese person to understand Latin American Spanish (specifically non-mexican varieties) or castillian spanish. The reason I ask this that it is a fact that the varieties spoken in the Caribbean was heavily influenced by Portuguese via the Canary Islands influence this same variety is also spoken in colombia and venezuela. The reason I ask this is because my mothers side of the family (made up of both brazilians and eu. portuguese) understands more the latin american varieties than castilian spanish.
I'm Portuguese, and I understand more clearly the spanish from Latin America than the spanish spoken in Spain. To me it sounds almost like portuguese spoken in Brazil, but even though i like standard castillean...