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"As well you should" &"so you should"
>>"the 'as' in the ballad"
There is no "as" in the ballad, Copyright ('Tis "'tis", so 'tis) ~ but your other points are very well argued.
>>"It's a relative pronoun meaning 'which', not an adverb"
Who says so ?- the word "as" could just as easily be serving for "thus" -- or for "'tis".
>>"It would create nonsense to say, 'Now stay and rest. And so you should!'"
It's no nonsense at all, if one would recognise the ballad line's parallel with the following exchange :
-I shall now stay and rest.
-As well you should !
>>"this ... isn't slang: it's an ellipsis"
And that is why I added "--or anything like it--" in order to convey that other informal or abbreviated forms, besides slang, are just that : less formal, commencing on the downward path of speech that is akin, but not yet approaching or equivalent to slang.
>>"there is plenty of slang"
For every bit of bibulous Ben Jonson or lusty Shakespeare there is much more of plain, chaste Thomas Browne and gravely illuminating Francis Bacon, methinks.
>>"Restoration drama has its share"
Aye, the little dogs of mockery and bawdy did nip at the heels of Dryden's heroes, didn't they ?- However, that was the lesser part of the genre, I believe, though more celebrated for sensation (and the Cavalier thumbing of noses at Cromwell's strictures).
Still and all, Copyright, your several arguments are impressively made, civilly presented and well taken. You are a quibbler's quibbler and my hat is off to you.
I googled "as well you should" and it's all over the internet, being used as the normal phrase that I think most native speakers would recognize.
<There is no "as" in the ballad>
No; but it is similar in that it doesn't mean "And so you should!", in that example (i.e. it doesn't express lively confirmation of another speaker's utterance).
<Who says so ?- the word "as" could just as easily be serving for "thus" -- or for "'tis".>
I think of all the definitions in e.g. the OED, this would best fit the rel. pronoun description (i.e. it could best be replaced by "the thing which", "a thing which", "a fact which", etc.). I can't recall an example where an ellipsis has reduced "'tis" to "as".
<It's no nonsense at all, if one would recognise the ballad line's parallel with the following exchange :
-I shall now stay and rest.
-As well you should ! >
That argument is not valid, since it incorporates and thus assumes the truth of the point you want to prove, i.e. that "as well you should!" is not nonsense.
<And that is why I added "--or anything like it--" in order to convey that other informal or abbreviated forms, besides slang, are just that : less formal, commencing on the downward path of speech that is akin, but not yet approaching or equivalent to slang. ... For every bit of bibulous Ben Jonson or lusty Shakespeare there is much more of plain, chaste Thomas Browne and gravely illuminating Francis Bacon, methinks. >
Bartholomew Fair alone would take up the same space as a significant part of Browne's work (which I would not describe as "plain"). Add to that the remainder of the corpus of Elizabethan and Jacobean drama, not to mention the works of Nashe, Greene, and Dekker, and we soon outrun even Browne and Bacon combined.
<Aye, the little dogs of mockery and bawdy did nip at the heels of Dryden's heroes, didn't they ?- However, that was the lesser part of the genre, I believe, though more celebrated for sensation (and the Cavalier thumbing of noses at Cromwell's strictures>
If you look into Congreve or Wycherley, you will find examples of slang and ellipsis at every turn.
>>I can't recall an example where an ellipsis has reduced "'tis" to "as".
I just gave you one : "As well you should". Isn't it more a sentence fragment, though, than what you call an ellipsis (elliptical sentence) in that the conveyed thought is not self-contained ?
>>Browne's work (which I would not describe as "plain")
Plain, yes, in the sense of lacking Jonson's bawdy high spirits ~ brown, in other words.
>>Add to that the remainder of the corpus...and we soon outrun even Browne and Bacon combined.
Been bean-counting again, 'ave yer, Googly ?
>>Bartholomew Fair alone would take up the same space
Only because the lines of that play are widely spaced and dotted throughout with little stage directions, as with many such scripts.
Well, you've nearly succeeded in establishing proof we were employing a bit of nonsense these past few centuries ~ as well we should.
<I just gave you one : "As well you should".>
That's the example whose validity is in question. Your argument is circular if you present "as well you should" as evidence of the validity of "as well you should".
<Been bean-counting again, 'ave yer, Googly ? >
I glanced at the relevant shelves.
<Only because the lines of that play are widely spaced and dotted throughout with little stage directions, as with many such scripts. >
No; because it is an extremely long play. Look into a copy, and you'll see what I mean.
<Well, you've nearly succeeded in establishing proof we were employing a bit of nonsense these past few centuries >
Where is the evidence? You said earlier that the phrase had a "venerable history"; but if it has left no trace in published texts, how would anyone know?
>>it is an extremely long play
I have a copy of "Bartholomew Fair" in a Penguin edition. Yes, it is rather long for its genre and its time.
But I've also been looking into complete editions of the works of Francis Bacon - they run to many thousands of densely texted pages in multiple volumes (and that's not including his letters) ; Thomas Browne, a similar case.
>>Where is the evidence?
I've given you what evidence I have, Copyright : As I indicated, I have been hearing, with my own ears, that familiar phrase "as well you should" being uttered, as a matter of course, since mid last century by men and women who were by then already well advanced in years (and that vintage takes us back to Victorian times, unless you believe they all suddenly got it off the telly from Doddy).
Uriel (a senior correspondent in these pages) offered you his attestations more than once as well.
The mere absence of a colloquialism (let it not haunt you) in the written records of your cherished Google, a search resource that has existed for all of twelve years, does nothing to shake my conviction that the idiom is tried and true ~ and venerable.
However, I do appreciate the energy of your attempted refutations.
Marvellous phenomenon, this contrarian bent !
<they run to many thousands of densely texted pages in multiple volumes>
How many of those volumes were written in Latin?
<they run to many thousands of densely texted pages in multiple volumes...Thomas Browne, a similar case. >
Only if each volume is very small, and each letter very big. Browne was a costive author, for his day.
<a search resource that has existed for all of twelve years>
Google Books is even younger; but since it contains several centuries' worth of searchable English texts, including Browne and Bacon, its age is not particularly relevant.
<my conviction that the idiom is tried and true ~ and venerable>
I would take the phrase in question as an amalgam of "And so you should!" and "As well you might!". Naturally this amalgam would sound familiar; to the extent that a native speaker might think he had heard it all his life. (No doubt the people who say "working like a Trojan horse" think the same.)
But if there is no evidence to support someone's belief, there is a possibility that the belief in question is based on a misapprehension.
>>Google Books is even younger; but since it contains several centuries' worth of searchable English texts, including Browne and Bacon, its age is not particularly relevant.
My point was that Google's collection of available texts, whether ancient or modern, is far from complete.
>>No doubt the people who say "working like a Trojan horse" think the same.
"The people" ?- I know of nobody who would accept the phrase "working like a Trojan horse" without questioning its authenticity and its coherency ~ not a single person.
>>But if there is no evidence to support someone's belief, there is a possibility that the belief in question is based on a misapprehension.
As well your belief as mine, I suppose. Let's leave it at that, shall we ?
Just ignore ©, he doesn't know what he's on about, he's the same person who was going on about it being impossible to thwart one's rage. He lost that argument too.
<My point was that Google's collection of available texts, whether ancient or modern, is far from complete.>
That seems to be Google's view too. But the collection contains 10 million searchable texts; so it's curious that a phrase with a "venerable history" should have no presence in all those 18th and 19th century novels, plays, and works of reference.
On the other hand, that interesting absence would support the suggestion that the phrase is a recent miscombinatory development.
Do give it a rest, Copyright ould son - but only after you've perused these examples which are found in your own preferred source, Google Books. They show ample use of my idiom "As well you should" by several linguistical louts and stylistical ignoramuses such as the late lamented William Safire, who for decades had published the column "On Language" in The New York Times Magazine ; Jon Fasman, an editor for The Economist ; and George E. Duckworth, the classical scholar. (By the bye, Copyright, the very form you favour using "might" - "As well you might" - gets scant regard in a Google Books search.)
The very last quotation sums it up nicely below, don't you think ?
Appleton's Journal of Literature, 1872 :
"I don't understand you," said Alice.
"Perhaps not, my dear," said Amicia, "It is just as well you should not entirely understand me"
The Complete Roman Drama vol. 1, p. 8, tr. Duckworth, publ. 1942 :
Although he knew his word would be for you
As good as a command, and that you fear
And reverence his name, as well you should.
Henry Suso (d. 1366), "The Exemplar, p. 338, translation by Tobin, pre-1989 :
Accept the same from our dear God whom you serve, as well you should, and whose loving anger is better than false endearments.
Ballou's Monthly Magazine, 1873 :
"Very well, colonel; I understand you. You have said quite enough," she replies, quiveringly.
"It is as well you should understand me, Quekett, and I should have said all this long before. You are angry now, but when you have had time to think over it, you will see that I am right."
"The Otherworld", Mercedes Lackey :
"Not now, Amanda," Merryl said. "I'm expecting your father home any minute."
“As well you should, darling,” Andrew Kendrick said from the doorway
"The Phoenix Unchained", Mercedes Lackey :
"We very much regret all the trouble and inconvenience we have caused you with our hasty and ill-considered brawling."
"As well you should," the stranger growled, though it was obvious he was somewhat mollified by Tiercel's humble words.
"Rage of A Demon King", Raymond E. Feist :
Roo nodded. "The Kingdom considers them something of an unknown factor."
"As well you should," said Vasarius.
"The Courtesan's Secret", p. 71, Claudia Dain :
"I beg your pardon?" he said stiffly. ...
"As well you should," she said, setting aside her embroidery.
"Black Ops", p. 53, W. E. B. Griffin :
Kocian walked quickly to her and kissed her hand.
"Eric Kocian, madam. I am enchanted."
"As well you should be, Billy," Doña Alicia said.
"Pray take my seat, and I'll get the champagne," Kocian said.
"The Geographer's Library", p. 37, Jon Fasman :
"Really? I don't remember hearing anything about it."
"As well you should not have. The department and the university went to
considerable trouble to keep this matter quiet."
"The Violet Hour : A Play" by Richard Greenberg :
JOHN. I tremble in your presence.
GIDGER. As well you should, as well you should.
"Scandalmonger", p. 167, William Safire :
"That is Susan. I do all I can to protect her."
"As well you should, Madam. I have four sons of my own"
"The Marriage Lesson", p. 20, Victoria Alexander :
"Damnation." Thomas had the grace to look properly chagrined. "I do apologize."
"As well you should." She raised a shoulder in a casual shrug.
"The Empty Quarter", p. 292, D. Marion Wilkinson :
"Although I see shreds of truth in your statement," Blount said, "the whole picture remains curiously incomplete. For instance, I find quite a bit written about what happened after the kick, but next to nothing about what went on before. I find that troubling."
As well you should, you son of a bitch, Logan thought.
===
Thank you, Quintus. I appreciate the transcription.
Leaving aside no. 1 and no. 4 for the moment, would you agree that the remaining examples could be classified as follows:
1. Different construction
2. Modern
3. Modern
4. Different construction
5. Modern
6. Modern
7. Modern
8. Modern
9. Modern
10. Modern
11. Modern
12. Modern
13. Modern
14. Modern
where "modern" means "20th/21st century" (and in most cases, post-1970)?
Marry come up, Sir, this won't do. Your ad hoc classifications are really rather meaningless, Copyright.
The two Victorian examples are not different at all, as they meet your own required definition in that they "express lively confirmation of another speaker's utterance" - your own words I'm quoting.
The relative modernity of the other examples is tempered by the fact that these uses were almost all employed in writings of native English-speakers who were born anywhere from the Victorian era to mid twentieth century, and who had grown up in a language continuum where the phrase "as well you should" already existed, and then became successful authors and, in several cases, leaders in the publishing world and actual eminent language scholars.
There are many more instances of "as well I/you/he/she/it/we/they/one/the former Lady Ritchie should" which have been published out there on the Web and on real paper (fancy that) for all to see, read and emulate.
You may not recall it, in your blind frenzy to prove all these authors wrong, but I did indicate to you that your favoured form of "as well you might" does not even match up for frequency in the records. You could just as easily claim, then, that "as well you might" and "so you should" are equally dubious verbal amalgamations which half the stable at Penguin Books has conspired to cog off an earlier saying and say they didn't.
Shhh. Hang on to your dreams, love !
<The two Victorian examples are not different at all, as they meet your own required definition in that they "express lively confirmation of another speaker's utterance" - your own words I'm quoting. >
They are grammatically different constructions:
"It is as well you should understand me, Quekett" - here <well> is part of the first clause, not part of the <should> clause (which it describes).
"As well you should!" - here <well> is part of the <should> clause (which it modifies).
Instances of ellipsis will commonly draw inferences of more than one phantom clause.
In any case, this will all be over soon. Your Majesty will soon be well enough to visit Bognor.
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