Is Standard German an artificial language?

User.   Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:20 pm GMT
It strikes me that the concept of Standard German has a similar problem to the concept of Modern Standard Arabic. It's all very well saying 105 million people speak German as a native language, but that count is just adding up all the speakers of German dialects, many of which are rather different from each other, to the point of unintelligibility in some cases.

The "German language" is a very broad clasification, to the extent that if Low German dialects are deemed part of the German language, they to be perfectly honest you could quite resonably call Dutch a German dialect too.
not a fan of german   Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:44 pm GMT
Where's Brennus when you need him?
Oguntunde Yamatoto   Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:02 pm GMT
Lol Brennus...

Anyway, standard German is nothing like as artificial, as say, Hinduism is artificial in a religious sense.

One dose wonder how something like 'Hinduism' gets to pass itself off as one religion.
Baldewin   Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:14 pm GMT
Germans just aren't fixated to exclusively speaking in one register. No big deal. About regional variant: Black Country English is also very far removed from Modern Standard English.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:If_yowm_saft_enuff.jpg

Every standard language is somewhat 'artificial' due to them being a 'book language'. Literacy is what introduced them en masse to the common people.
James   Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:30 pm GMT
It doesn't matter how many dialects are spoken, all Germans, Swiss and Austrians learn High German so when they do meet, they actually do speak only ONE language, High German.

You also get dialects in English, like for example have you heard someone from Jamaica speak English. Or someone from Scotland that speaks English.

You would also struggle to understand if two Jamaicans speak English to one another. But they can also slow down for you and speak standard English that they learned in school so that you can understand them better.

So German might have many dialects, some our easy to understand, some are more difficult to understand but all German speakers are taught standard High German in school so when people don't understand their dialects they can switch back into standard German. So yes they do all speak ONE language.
Lhhlanguage   Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:48 am GMT
I'm no expert on German or Arabic, but from what I understand, there's a big difference between Standard German and Modern Standard Arabic. Standard German actually is the native language of many people in Germany today, particularly northern Germany. And as has already been mentioned, even those for whom it isn't native can speak it in everyday conversation (at least almost all of them can). In contrast, nobody speaks Modern Standard Arabic as a native language, and many Arabs either can't speak it at all or prefer not to in everyday life. In everyday situations, MSA sounds very stilted and unnatural, something which can not be said of normal Standard German.
Baldewin   Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:51 am GMT
Arabs also have problems with illiteracy and that's the reason. Time will point out whether it will stay real unity or not. But when will they finally become literates for 99%.
Grape   Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:28 pm GMT
Standard German is the native tongue of the people born in Hannover.
Even in Hamburg and Rostock most people speak Standard German since dialect (platt) has been faded out.
In the South people still use dialect so they mixed it with the standard: therefore strange accent of many people from Central And Southern Germany as opposed to Northern Germany.
Brennnicht   Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:27 pm GMT
Yeah. What's up with Brennus? LOL!

Most of the young people in Germany nowadays use standard German.
The further south you go the stronger is the accent usually, but even in cities in Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria young people usually speak Hochdeutsch. In fact, Munich is thoroughly Hochdeutsch. Among people under 30, Bavarian dialect speakers are hard to find.
Scorpio   Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:29 pm GMT
German is indeed an artificial languages, like many modern languages by the way. Medieval french (langue d'oil) doesn't look like modern french, the same for english, dutch...
The only difference i think is that german didn't come from an early centralized capital (Paris, London...), but from the Lutherian Reformation. It is not a hazard if it is in the catholic Germany that the local dialects are the most spoken. The prussian arrived too late to entirely germanize the western and southern regions.
Baldewin   Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:43 pm GMT
This is the same as with Dutch, which also came with the Reformation (actually partly also by copying German grammar books and making it more Dutch). In the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium the dialect went on for a longer time and are still alive in West Flanders, Pajottenland, Kempen, Limburg. In the South of the Netherlands (catholic) dialect is still spoken in town of Tilburg and Limburg.
Still, in the Dutch Low Saxon parts of the Netherlands the several Low Saxon dialects are very alive among younger generation, especially in Groningen. It's being threatened only recently as more other Dutch study there. That's because Low Saxon is very different from Low Franconian.
Groningen is an interesting town, but their province was very late in getting electricity compared to the Randstad. This may also have conserved their dialect, despite being Protestant.

Standard Dutch is quite artificial and - as a late-bloomer - only has been standardized officially since the 18th century (even though 'a' standard language existed since the 15th century, there were different spellings by several authors). It developed into becoming more Hollandic since the Reformation as well and less Southern (Flemish, Brabantian).
Past resistance against Standard Dutch was Contra-Reformatory Catholic, because it was the language of the Reformation. Only recently do Catholics and Protestants read the same Bible, in Modern Dutch. I have always grown up with a Catholic Bible written in very Archaic Dutch. I also have a Protestant Bible slightly less Archaic Dutch. I'm no believer though.
Dutch   Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:41 am GMT
Is archaic Dutch to modern Dutch what Middle English is to Modern English, or is there less of a difference?
rep   Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:27 am GMT
<<That's because Low Saxon is very different from Low Franconian. >>
Middle Low Saxon doesn't differ from Middle Low Franconian so much:
Onse Vader
Die in de hemelen zijt:
gheheylicht zy owen naem:
Laet toecomen o ryck:
uwen Will geschiede in der aerden gelyck in den Hemel:
ons dagelich Broodt verleendt ons heden:
end vergeeft ons onse Sculden
gelick wy oock vergeven onsen Sculdenaers:
noch enleydet ons niet in becoringhe:
Maer verloft ons van t’ quaet.
Amen.
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Onse_Vader
http://wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Nds&from=Maren+0024
Baldewin   Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:59 pm GMT
It's Modern Dutch, but with the extensive use of the subjunctive and a pronoun (gij) that isn't used in the Netherlands (is in Flanders in spoken language). You can compare it with the English 'thou'. The XVIIth century Statenbijbel also uses four cases we only have in idioms. It's archaic language, not ancient language.
You also have the older Modern Spanish voseo which is used in spoken language in South America, but isn't anymore in Spain except for archaic language.

Here's a link to the Statenbijbel: http://www.statenvertaling.net/bijbel/gene/1.html (still used by some conservative Protestant circles, in XVIIth century Dutch, oldest Bible actively used). Most people use a translation of the XXth century though or the new Bible in Modern Dutch (which is deemed 'too modern' by many).
This is the base for our standard language.
Here's a link to the Modern Bible: http://www.biblija.net/biblija.cgi?m=Gen+1%2C1-2%2C3&id42=0&id18=1&pos=0&l=nl&set=10 (also translated directly from Greek and Hebrew, this one is made because some had difficulty understanding these archaic bibles, the first Bible ever to be accepted by both Protestants as Catholics).

Answer to your question: you can compare it to Early Modern English. Middle Dutch dates from before the XVIth century. Early Modern Dutch is seen as separate from Middle Dutch.

Another great comparison is looking at the different versions of 'Onzevader' we know:

Translation used for the Belgian Church Province (I grew up with this one):
Onze Vader Die in de Hemelen zijt,
geheiligd zij Uw Naam.
Uw Rijk kome,
Uw Wil geschiede op aarde als in de Hemel.
Geef ons heden ons dagelijks brood
en vergeef ons onze schulden,
gelijk ook wij vergeven aan onze schuldenaren.
En leid ons niet in bekoring,
maar verlos ons van het kwade.
(Want van u is het Koninkrijk,
en de kracht
en de heerlijkheid
tot in eeuwigheid.)
Amen.

Translation used for the Dutch Church Province (also catholic)
Onze Vader Die in de Hemel zijt,
Uw Naam worde geheiligd;
Uw Rijk kome;
Uw wil geschiede op aarde zoals in de Hemel.
Geef ons heden ons dagelijks brood;
en vergeef ons onze schuld,
zoals ook wij aan anderen hun schuld vergeven
en leid ons niet in bekoring,
maar verlos ons van het kwade.
Want van U is het Koninkrijk,
en de kracht,
en de heerlijkheid
in eeuwigheid.
Amen.

Translation used for the Dutch Bible Society (Protestant)
Onze Vader Die in de Hemelen zijt,
Uw Naam worde geheiligd;
Uw Koninkrijk kome;
Uw wil geschiede,
gelijk in de Hemel alzo ook op de aarde.
Geef ons heden ons dagelijks brood;
en vergeef ons onze schulden,
gelijk ook wij vergeven onze schuldenaren;
en leid ons niet in verzoeking,
maar verlos ons van de Boze.
Want van U is het Koninkrijk
en de kracht en de heerlijkheid
tot in eeuwigheid.
Amen.

They're actually all just as archaic as one another, but more modern than the Statenvertaling.

Modern Dutch variant (but still most believers older than 20 aren't used to this one)
Onze Vader in de hemel,
laat uw naam geheiligd worden,
laat uw koninkrijk komen
en uw wil gedaan worden
op aarde zoals in de hemel.
Geef ons vandaag het brood
dat wij nodig hebben.
Vergeef ons onze schulden,
zoals ook wij hebben vergeven
wie ons iets schuldig was.
En breng ons niet in beproeving,
maar red ons uit de greep van het kwaad.
[Want aan u behoort het koningschap, de macht en de majesteit tot in eeuwigheid.]
Amen.
rep   Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:19 pm GMT
Language of Onse Vader is identified as "Middelnedderdüütsch",not "Middelnederlands"
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Category:Middelnedderd%C3%BC%C3%BCtsch