Questions about dialects in France, Germany and Italy

South Korean   Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:33 pm GMT
The following quotes testify central efforts in nationalizing the administrative language which were then unspoken in rural communities. While I don't think there were any significant political resistance to it other than the schoolchildren having trouble to obey their teachers, it is still true that it was a political, artificial incursion of a language through public education.

"Elected constitutional bishop by his diocese of Blois, it was in 1794 that Abbé Grégoire submitted to the Convention his ‘Rapport sur la nécessité et les moyens d’anéantir les patois et d’universaliser l’usage de la langue française’. In this report he effectively recommended the ‘sole and invariable use of the language of liberty in a Republic one and indivisible’. To achieve this, he suggested producing short works, songs and newspapers in French which would be sent into all the communes. He proposed that only the national language be permitted in all the municipalities, and he even went so far as to ask – with the utmost seriousness – that future spouses ‘should be subjected to the obligation to prove that they can read, write and speak the national language’ before they got married."

"In the course of a linguistic survey which I carried out several years ago in various French-speaking regions, more than a few of the older participants recalled the somewhat sadistic custom of handling an object, which varied according to the region, to the first child who used a patois word in class. The guilty pupil would then pass the object to the next child who used the patois, and so on until the end of the lesson, when punishment would befall the last unfortunate who had not been able to get rid of the object before the bell sounded for break.
This left bilingual child with mixed feelings of shame and attachment towards the patois. In Les tilleuls de Lautenbach, the author Jean Egen recounts that as a child he spoke Alsacien only at home.
'When I was playing outside with little Gaulard or little Parrot, if I saw my mother coming, before she could even open her mouth I would begin speaking to her in French because I was afraid that she would speak to me in dialect.'
He also said of his mother: ‘To her husband and children she spoke only the dialect. To God she spoke German, and a little French to please Dad.’"

Although it is clear that there were people who supported the suppression of Patois and incursion of French:

"Nowadays, when so many people believe that the search for their own identity involves a return to the dialects, some of the answers to Grégoire’s questionnaire are not without surprise, since they contain letters witnessing to a real desire on the part of the people to be ‘delivered’ from their patois. Several letters ask expressly and emphatically for central government to organise serious teaching of the national language in the regions as quickly as possible."

And when the conscripts of the First World War, who came from all over the France, started to communicate with each other in French that they had learn in school instead of their Patois, they continued speaking French even at home after the war ended, thus accelerating the decline of the Patois.

Source: French Inside Out: The Worldwide Development of the French Language in the Past, the Present and the Future (Henriette Walter) Routledge, 1993
Luca   Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:56 pm GMT
where are you from Lollita for stating those non-senses?
Romanesque shares 95%phonological similarity with tuscan? bullshit. romanesque shares more with meridional dialects than with tuscan.
99% of venetians speak dialect? when ? with which frequence? did you maybe intend ''are able to speak dialect'' ? Have you ever been in Veneto, Lollita?
PARISIEN   Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:34 pm GMT
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the sensation that Veneto is actually tri-lingual:

- in big centres like Padua, Trieste, Vicenza, Mestre etc. educated people speak mainly standard Italian,
- common people speak a sort of Venetianized Italian, with a strong local accent, local pronunciation and many local words, but with some attention a foreigner with some knowledge of Italian can understand most of it,
- in the villages, peasants speak a language that sounds like the former but which is impossible to grasp!


Another place where dialect seems to be widespread (well, in my own experience) is the Emilian Apennine mountains, South of Modena. The local language sounds quite different from neighbouring Tuscan, but eerily similar to Provençal.
encore   Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:40 pm GMT
<<2. Concerning Germany, are there Berlin dialect, Hamburg dialect or Munich dialect? Can a standard German speaker understand the dialects there? What language do the local people in the three cities speak in daily life? >>
Some people in Hamburg speak Missingsch. It is High German with Low German substrate.There is only Berlin ( E.good- S.German gut- Berlin German jut) or Munich accents,dialects are died.
chiaraadrianagiulia   Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:27 pm GMT
Lollita is right, local dialects are widely spoken throughout Veneto and Venezia Giulia. Trieste is not in Veneto, it is in Venezia Giulia in the Friuli Venezia Giulia region. The local dialect (Triestino) is spoken in everyday life in both formal and informal situations and by both educated and uneducated people. Speaking dialect is not regarded as either rude or as a sign of lack of education. There are people who take pride in speaking it, otherwise it is just considered the normal means of communication. As happens with all languages and dialects, Triestin has undergone a number of changes over the decades, becoming more and more mixed with Italian terms and expressions. There are still people who stick to a more genuine dialect form, though.
Although there is some degree of mutual intelligibility with Italian, the Triestin dialect is not very easily understood by Italian speaking people without any prior knowledge. Triestin and the dialects spoken in the area surrounding Trieste and Istria are very close to Venetian because they share a common origin; they are therefore mutually intelligible.
In Friuli many people speak the local language (Friulian) which is very different and not mutually intelligible with either Triestin, Venetian or the other dialects I have mentioned. Of course, people in Veneto and Friuli Venezia Giulia can also speak Italian, which is the national language.
rep   Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:20 pm GMT
What about Sicilia? Is Sicilianu spoken everywhere?
greg   Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:21 pm GMT
Ricky Lim : « What is Marseille dialect? Is it a dialect of Occitan? Or can a Parisian understand the local conversation there? What language does a local Maeseille speak? »


Ce que tu appelles « Marseille dialect » recouvre plusieurs acceptions :

— le français marseillais (du francitan de Marseille)

— le provençal marseillais (moins répandu que le français marseillais)

— le cliché français sur le français marseillais.


Tout francophone exposé au français des médias parisiens peut comprendre le français marseillais. Des non-francophones maternels apprennent le français via le français marseillais.
Ricky Lim   Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:31 am GMT
To Luca and Lollita:
So I can draw a conclusion that Milanese is seldom spoken in the city and Neapolitan is widely spoken in the city, right?
And the Rome situation seems controversial. Romanesco, seldom or widely in the city?
I read about Venetian in another article saying that local people love speaking it.

To encore:
I think I mean Hamburgisch, Berlinerisch and Munchener Bayrisch. And all of them had died out?

To greg:
I'm sorry that I can't read French. But I think I got your point. So what about the Marseilles French and Marseilles Provencal situation? Which of the language is more widely spoken in the daily life there?
Ricky Lim   Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:38 am GMT
I still think it's a pity that many dialects in the countries had died out.
Why can't local people handle two languages well at the same time? Learning dialect in the family and between friends with learning standard language at school and from mass media. It's not that contradictive.

Nowadays, everybody learns English and why can't he accept the language from his ancestors?
greg   Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:12 pm GMT
Ricky Lim : le français marseillais est numériquement plus important que le provençal marseillais. Et de très loin. Je n'ai malheureusement pas de stats ni de données sociolinguistiques, mais il suffit de se promener dans les rues de Marseille pour constater que le français est le vernaculaire des 111 quartiers de Marseille. Ceci dit, le provençal marseillais subsiste avec force par l'influence qu'il exerce sur le français marseillais. La phonologie du français marseillais est celle d'Oïl et d'Oc en même temps — et à des degrés divers, variables selon les locuteurs. La présence de calques syntaxiques importés avec succès du provençal en français est anciennement avérée. Sans compter les innombrables emprunts lexicaux, toujours bien vivaces. Cette espèce de symbiose interlangues est la marque du français de Marseille, trop souvent réduit à "l'accent marseillais", la galéjade, la faconde etc.
Gnocca   Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:52 pm GMT
Il romanesco moderno (che nelle zone periferiche viene talvolta degradato a "romanaccio") non si può più assimilare al romanesco del Belli e di Trilussa: è un dialetto con poche differenze con l'italiano standard ed è uno dei dialetti italiani più intellegibili anche da chi non ne abbia conoscenza. Fondamentalmente è caratterizzato da forti elisioni nei sostantivi e nei verbi (come ad esempio "dormi'" per "dormire"), da alcuni raddoppiamenti consonantici ("gommito" per "gomito") e da uno scarso uso dei tempi e dei modi verbali: si utilizzano quasi esclusivamente il presente, il passato prossimo e l'imperfetto indicativo, e quest'ultimo nei periodi ipotetici va solitamente a sostituire sia il condizionale che il congiuntivo. Questa sostituzione causa inoltre alcuni problemi ai romani che non praticano abitualmente la lingua italiana, i quali spesso nel tentativo di avvicinarcisi cadono in errori come quello di utilizzare il condizionale anche al posto del congiuntivo. Un'altra forma propria della lingua italiana che nel dialetto romanesco muta forma (ma non funzione) è l'utilizzo di "stare + gerundio", che viene reso con "stare + a + infinito del verbo" (es.: "Stavo a scherza'" per "Stavo scherzando").
Thor   Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:40 pm GMT
"...in Hamburg..It is High German with Low German substrate.There is only Berlin"

I think it is the same case with Berlin. After the slavic period, Brandenburg and other northern regions of actual Germany, has been colonized by "saxon" settlers (in fact low-saxon, who had the same dialects of netherlands). The elites have probably become german quicker than others northern regions become of lutherianism and prussian centralization. We can say also that Berlin is a slavic village which become successively dutch and german.
gabby   Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:29 pm GMT
The Marseille dialect of French is French spoken with a sing-songy « l'accent du Midi », with words, expressions, and phrases taken directly from Provençal, due obviously to the Occitan substrate, and some influences of Italian and Arabic. This mélange of French and Occitan, or Francitan, is usually spoken with pride among the Marseillais because it demonstrates their uniqueness and distinctiveness from Paris. Most Marseillais are quite capable of speaking standard French in order to be understood.

Pure Provençal is rarely spoken anymore in Marseille, except among the elderly and in the countrysides, and among close relatives. Also, Marseille is a multicultural and multilingual city comprised of people with ancestral origins in Italy, Corsica, Greece, the Maghreb, Russia, Armenia, Sub-Saharan Africa, Comoros, Southeast Asia, etc. So the number of true Provençal speakers is very small.

http://www.marseillais-du-monde.org/dictionnaire.php3
Free France to bits   Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:50 pm GMT
Free the germanic lands of: the pale of Calais, Flanders and Elsass & Lotheringen.

Then free Brittany

Even free the untermenschen types like the Basques, Catalans, Savoyans, Corisicans!

Can anybody else think of any other areas annexed into the imperialist amphibian and melon and olive eating French state?
Franco   Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:53 pm GMT
It is worthnoting that France is the only country in Europe that has consistently expanded its territory in the past five centuries. I guess that this tendence will continue and probably the Rhine will no longer act as a border.