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Catalan and Spanish
Please Spaniards, try to give DEMOCRACY a chance... It is not a bad thing, believe me, it is just the right to decide. I know you find hard to realize this sometimes, but I guess you are able to change your mind listening to others, not only your shameful media system...
I think most of Spaniards have not accepted modern times, they think they can still put tanks in Barcelona anytime and being imperialist as it they have been during the last 3 centuries... But, unfortunately for them, those times passed.
However Madrid's mass media is still the most powerful in Spain and they are going to continue tellying lies to the population within Spain and abroad about how bad Catalans are, about some kind of persecution of Spanish language in Catalonia (still not proved although it will continue dammaging our image) and about hating Spaniards (to defend our Catalan identity is not against you or any one else, is a democratic right) ... It is so damn hard to explain things over and over again!!!
By the way this story is not new. The catalanofobia in Castille can be found historically since at least the 17th century telling the same lies and trying to destroy us with the power of their state behind.
It is very easy: please, be democratic.
I find Catalan language ugly, so please Catalans stick to Spanish.
So you can sing Jennifer Lopez songs hahahahaha
We, Catalans; are the most educated people so it doesn't tell us anything at all that Kelly finds our language ugly. We've heard that thousands of times from our Castilian language monolingual brothers and sisters who wish to redeem us from linguistic ugliness.
There are no ugly languages; only ugly remarks. So, we'll stick to our beautiful and cultivated Catalan language, while we learn other languages as best as we can.
Kelly has more than enough burden; poor soul, with her weird musical taste. Juanita Lopez. Good Christ...
You can; of course; forbid us our language. You've done it so many times in the past that it seems only natural to you.
Nevertheless; many Castilian speaking families who have moved to Catalonia now speak Catalan at home as happens in all normal linguistic areas.
As i can see JordI, its too hard to you that having such a "beautiful and cultivated Catalan language" nobody out Spain knows a song in catalan. It´s sad, you know, bacause Lluis Llach have composed pretty songs but, because catalan isnt a worldwide popular language its dificult to sell.
So i can understand the way you look down on Jennifer, because she uses the language that the opresive castallanos have imposed to you (i mean, to all the catalans) and it hurt you bad. :)
P.D: You haven´t answer my questions. Do you really want cataluña to be a single nation (if it could be like that)?
ESPARSA
Des que perdí a vós, déu de ma vida,
perquè vejau porte corona casta,
està el meu cos que extrema set lo gasta,
car jo sol bec aigua descolorida.
Ni em pose mai en rama verd florida,
mas vaig pel bosc passant vida ermitana,
e prest responc, si alguna em demana,
que sola vós de mi sereu servida.
[Joan Roís De Corella-XV century]
I don't know who sent the above message but it's a beautiful XVth c. poem in Catalan, from the Valencian poet, Joan Ruis de Corella.
By the way, the most beautiful songs and poems in the world, dear commercial Pablo, aren't the ones that sell the most. There are also some very fine Castilian poets who nobody knows apart from the "happy few". Most Castilians don't even know them! They are probably busy listening to Juanita López.
The importance of a culture and language lies in the people who speak it.
I have already told you Catalonia is a "nation". The political frame is another story and what I would like is clear as water.
Let's go back to the beautiful Catalan language poem somebody sen. I have done a quick translation:
Since I lost you, God of my life,
for you to see I wear a chaste crown
my body is worn from extreme thirst
since I only drink colourless water
neither do I stop in a green flowered branch
but I wander in the woods leading a hermit's life
and soon I answer, if a lady asks me
that only you will by me be served.
I'd rather give it the love sense it once had although it is also possible to be in love with one country's and language. That happens all over the world and it also happens to us, Catalans, no matter what France or Spain think how we should be.
There is no way that anyone can compare the following and deny that Catalan and Occitan are sister languages;
Catalan:
Tothom té tots els drets i llibertats proclamats en aquesta Declaració, sense cap distinció de raça, color, sexe, llengua, religió, opinió política o de qualsevol altra mena, origen nacional o social, fortuna, naixement o altra condició.
A més, no es farà cap distinció basada en l'estatut polític, jurídic o internacional del país o del territori al qual pertanyi una persona, tant si és independent com si està sota administració fiduciària, si no és autònom, o està sota qualsevol altra limitació de sobirania.
Occitan (Lengadocien):
Tota persona se pot prevaler de totes los dreches e de totas las libertats proclamada dins la presenta Declaracion sense cap de distincion de raça, de color, de sèxe, de lenga, de religion, de opinion politica o d'autra mena, d'origina nacionala o sociala, de fortuna, de naissença o de quina autra situacion que sia.
Se farà pas tanpauc cap de distincion fondada sus l'estatut politic, administratiu e internacional de país o territòri que la persona ne depend juridicament, qu'aquel país o territòri siá independent, jos tutèla, non autonòme o somés a quina limitacion de sobeiranetat que sia.
A cursory glance is sufficient to recognise their relatedness!
wonder where that occitan text came from but if anything it feels even closer to castilian than catalan feels ('dreches','opinion',','se pot','sia').
<wonder where that occitan text came from but if anything it feels even closer to castilian than catalan feels ('dreches','opinion',','se pot','sia').>
The occitan text is from -
http://www.language-museum.com/l/languedocien.htm
There are also elements in each text that have been translated differently but contain cognates in each language:
Occ Cat
se pot es pot
dins dins
quina quina
tanpauc tanpoc
administratiu administratiu
sometre sotmetre
Also compare the days of the week:
Occ Cat
diluns dilluns
dimarç Dimarts
dimecres dimecres
dijòus Dijous
Divendres Divendres
dissabte dissabte
dimenge Diumenge
Si voleu fer comentari sobre aquestas llenguas us recomano qu'abans les conegueu una mica.
If you take a cursory look at the following texts taken from http://membres.lycos.fr/occitancatala/ you'd think that Catalan (first text) and Occitan (second text) were dialects of the same language. Of course, they are not, but they are more similar to each other than say French to Italian or Castilian to Portuguese.
Perquè el català i l'occità?
El català i l’occità són dues llengües neollatines bessones que divergeixen sobretot pels sons i les diftongacions. Entre catalans i occitans, hi ha diferències, mes també se troben una enorme quantitat de semblances com no es troben en cap altres pobles. L'afinitat cultural i lingüística de la nació catalana i occitana no té cap altre paral·lel semblant en el món.
Perqué l'occitan e lo catalan?
L'occitan e lo catalan son doas lengas neolatinas bessonas que divergísson subretot pels sons i las diftongacions. Entre occitans e catalans, i a diferéncias, mas tanben se tròban una enorme quantitat de semblanças coma non se tròban en pas cap altres pòbles. L'afinitat culturala e lingüistica de la nacions occitana e catalana non ten pas cap altre parallèl semblant al mond.
Dear Jordi,
I have been reading your postings on philology since 2004 and I my admiration for your knowledge of the Romance languages grows every day.
I myself was born in Argentina more than half a century ago, grand children of assorted Europeans, as every other Latin American of that time.
For a strange coincidence, my mother's grandparents came from Piedmont, were they spoke Aupenc Occitan, I think and my father's grandparents came from Carcassona, were they spoke Lengadocian Occitan, I presume.
I was born a Castilian speaker, but life drove me to learn English, French, Italian and Portuguese, that I master today. I had a recent and very touching encounter with Occitan through Kate Mosse's "Labyrinth". Extraordinary book.
Since I read it, I have been trying to get hold of what was the original language of my ancestors. Abundant tears rolled down from my eyes when I first heard "Se canta, que cante", a few days ago. Since then, I have found at least eight versions of that beautiful love hymn . . . I think Occitan is a very lively and rich language!
I even bought an Occitnan songs CD and the vendor wrote me an e-mail in Occitan! Ain't that awsome!!
The one thing I can't find is the melodie of the nursing song: "Bona nuèit, bona nuèit/Braves amics, pica mièja nuèit/Cal finir velhada/E jos la flassada"
Can you translate it to me? Do you know where I can hear it?
My warmest regards.
It is funny to read how these catalan call everything in Spain Castillian, and then they are the ones opressed by the castillian....hehehe. Well let me explain to you that Spain is a nation formed by different identities and yes you are right castillian is one of them so is Gallician, Basque, Leonese, Asturian, Aragonese, Andalucian,.....?or for you they are all castillian too. Well let me tell this, go to Leon ,Galicia ,Asturias or Basque then go to Castillian , come back then and tell me what you've found and learnt. This new disease called nationalism is cured with travelling my friend Jordi. Also found funny to read things like "we speak 2 languages and you castillian not" Ok I got it now.....what about basque, asturian-leonese, galician?what are those?are those ones not languages as well?
Look it is great you are catalan and think you are the best and catalan is the best language in the whole and all that, from the button of my hearth I wish cataluna could seperate if that is what wishes.
Saludines mui axebreigos dende las festeiras asturllionesas :-)
dose any one know What do the Catalonians want from the central Spanish government? Trying to find the answer but I need an answer quick.
They want money.....what else could politician be after rather than money?
They claim a lot of tax and do not get anything back, well all that bullshit!!! some of them even claim they do sustain Spain....hahaha.....how much igarance! Well my friend jordi or catalan naticonalism come to Vega de Antonan (within the Leon Province) and check that they still do not even have a main road across the village......and as far as I know we all pay "spanish tax"....10 years waiting for that damn road unbelivable and then catalan complain.....It is obvious forget all that language identity, language, culture and all that they say (they are many more languages and identities in the peninsula iberica do not feel so special with your catalan) they want money and more money!!
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