French vowel

Crapshit   Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:10 pm GMT
Is the French 'schwa' the same sound as English one IPA: / ə / ?
Duc de Caduc   Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:07 pm GMT
An unstressed e is actually usually an [œ] in French.
Crapshit   Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:30 pm GMT
Merci beaucoup :) What a pity, I thought I could transfer 'schwa', but that [œ] sound also isn't so dificult to me, I learned it yet . But is that 'unstressed e' shorter or longer than [œ] from words like :soeur, coeur?
Duc de Caduc   Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:38 pm GMT
This Wikipédia article: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_caduc says that Québécois French uses [ ə ] for unstressed e's. So it's a variety, a more archaïc one compared to Metropolitan French, after what I understand.

>>But is that 'unstressed e' shorter or longer than [œ] from words like :soeur, coeur?<<
I don't think an unstressed vowel can be long in modern French. (Latin did have that feature, though.)
Crapshit   Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:21 pm GMT
Short sound is a bit tricky to use,hmm I'm gonna listen to some vowel recordings to get it's shortness right. There are some videos on YT... I also heard that trilled R (Italian R) is a regional sound in French? Could you confirm this?
Duc de Caduc   Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:10 pm GMT
<<I also heard that trilled R (Italian R) is a regional sound in French? Could you confirm this?>>

Yes, "r roulé" is found among old, rural speakers.
Duc de Caduc   Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:18 pm GMT
Speaking of [œ], e's and rolled/trilled as opposed to uvular r's. Look what PARISIEN wrote a few months ago!:

>>There has been much speculation about the origin of that /ʁ/ and its current spreading into various areas (Dutch, Scandinavian, but also Brazilian). At any rate, it seems it started from three places, Northern France, Copenhagen and Northern Germany, independently from each other.

Danish linguist Nyrop once observed that uvular /ʁ/ is strongly correlated with phonologic systems that favour weak vowels, especially the open "ä" and "ö" sounds (which is made visible by the over-aboundance of the "e" letter in French, German and Danish). He therefore thought that uvular /ʁ/ must have started very early in Parisian French, possibly by the end of the Middle Ages. Back then, in the Parisian dialect, the verbs "trouver" and "charger" were pronounced "treuver" and "cherger".

Conversaly, languages where open weak "ä" sounds are uncommon or non-dominant (most Romance and Slavic languages) typically tend to preserve an alveolar trill.<<
greg   Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:56 am GMT
Un phonème est un ensemble de sons, distincts quoique parfois voisins de par leur articulation, que la langue unifie par-delà leurs différences sensibles.

En conséquence, dire que /ə/ se ramène à un prononcé — style /ə/ = [ə] ou encore /ə/ = [œ] — est inexact. Par définition on a : /X/ ≠ [X].

On pourrait à la rigueur écrire /X/ = { [X] } pour illustrer que le phonème /X/ est un ensemble dont les éléments sont des phones (sons), mais en général cet ensemble comporte toujours plus d'un élément.
De sorte qu'on devrait plutôt écrire pour un phonème /X/ admettant n réalisations :
/X/ = { [X1] ; [X2] ; [X3] ; [X4] ; ... ; [Xi] ; ... ; [Xn] }.

En l'occurrence, le phonème français /ə/ admet plusieurs réalisations, dont l'absence de réalisation, notée : ∅ → à ne confondre ni avec la voyelle [ø] ni avec le phonème /ø/.

Quand /ə/ est effectivement réalisé, il est très souvent arrondi, ce qui exclut donc la voyelle [ə] qui est désarrondie. Mais certains francophones pourront toujours désarrondir en finale : voir les prononciations méridionales que je réduis arbitrairement à [ɐ] et [ə].

Le phonème /ə/ est souvent réalisé [ø], plus rarement [œ], mais le plus souvent c'est [o\] qui s'entend. À quoi il faut ajouter

Le symbole "o\" est un symbole **graphiquement** équivalent au symbole "ø" à ceci près que la barre oblique est descendante et non montante. Mon clavier ne me permet pas d'écrire "o\" en un seul signe.

En résumé : /ə/ = { [o\] ; [ø] ; ∅ ; [ə] ; [ɐ] ; [œ] }. On pourrait ajouter d'autres sons et affiner suivant que /ə/ est en finale ou pas.

En tout cas : /ə/(fra) ≠ /ə/(ang)
car : [ø] ∉ /ə/(ang).