Why 15 'love'?
15 Love or 15 nil/nought/zero?
Zero looks like an egg. In French, "the egg" is "le oevre" (I might not remember the spelling correctly, but that's the gist of it). That then got corrupted into just "love". Probably could get that from googling "love tennis" (I've never heard it used outside of tennis).
Although the far-fetched theory is often heard that it represents the French word l'oeuf an 'egg' (from the resemblance between an egg and a nought) this has been debunked. According to 'The Guinness Book of Tennis Facts & Feats & Fifteen Love' the term "love" comes from the English phrase "neither for love nor for money", indicating nothing.
Also, it can be traced to the 17th-century expression "play for love," meaning 'to play without any wager, for nothing'. It is this meaning of 'nothing' that love takes on when used in tennis--and in certain card games, as well as in the occasional British football commentary . The proper way to describe a score of zero to zero is to say love-all.
Also, it can be traced to the 17th-century expression "play for love," meaning 'to play without any wager, for nothing'. It is this meaning of 'nothing' that love takes on when used in tennis--and in certain card games, as well as in the occasional British football commentary . The proper way to describe a score of zero to zero is to say love-all.
Why do you characterise it as far fetched, Damian ?
Throughout Anglophony today, such centuries-old phrases as "big goose egg", "duck's egg" and "an addled duck egg" are still used to describe the symbol of nought or zero, in common parlance as well as in cricket and baseball scores - "He laid an egg" - "He broke his duck['s egg]", i. e., he made a score to get out of mere nought ; and Shipley's excellent dictionary "The Origins of English Words" (2001) says :
"The slang term goose-egg: zero (from the shape), has become the technical term in tennis, love, meaning zero, which is from Fr L'oeuf: the egg."
The idiom "neither for love nor money" doesn't indicate "nothing" exactly. It means something is unattainable.
And there is a problem with your Guinness Book theory (hardly an authoritative source for "debunking", by the way - Aren't they the folk that go about the globe seeking out two-headed giraffes and bearded ladies and the world's smallest teacup ?) : Were wagers of money really the point of tennis in the early days ?- The game was being played in the Royal courts and monasteries of mediaeval France.
The phrase "playing for love" would seem more plausible for tennis. An amateur is literally a "lover" of a pursuit, who plays "for the love of it". However, to play tennis "for love" would still require the marking of points between the players - not necessarily for competition, but just to carry on a coherent match. And why would one bother to say "love-all" therefore ?- Is that intended to clarify that one contestant in a given game is not playing for love with the other striving for the win ?
En tout cas, L'oeuf is not out of the game yet, I think. It is hardly nonsensical that the score nought = 0 = goose egg = L'oeuf = love.
"Love" for L'oeuf is a term that might well have been uttered by some Tudor monarchs, who we know were fond of playing tennis and spoke both French and English.
Throughout Anglophony today, such centuries-old phrases as "big goose egg", "duck's egg" and "an addled duck egg" are still used to describe the symbol of nought or zero, in common parlance as well as in cricket and baseball scores - "He laid an egg" - "He broke his duck['s egg]", i. e., he made a score to get out of mere nought ; and Shipley's excellent dictionary "The Origins of English Words" (2001) says :
"The slang term goose-egg: zero (from the shape), has become the technical term in tennis, love, meaning zero, which is from Fr L'oeuf: the egg."
The idiom "neither for love nor money" doesn't indicate "nothing" exactly. It means something is unattainable.
And there is a problem with your Guinness Book theory (hardly an authoritative source for "debunking", by the way - Aren't they the folk that go about the globe seeking out two-headed giraffes and bearded ladies and the world's smallest teacup ?) : Were wagers of money really the point of tennis in the early days ?- The game was being played in the Royal courts and monasteries of mediaeval France.
The phrase "playing for love" would seem more plausible for tennis. An amateur is literally a "lover" of a pursuit, who plays "for the love of it". However, to play tennis "for love" would still require the marking of points between the players - not necessarily for competition, but just to carry on a coherent match. And why would one bother to say "love-all" therefore ?- Is that intended to clarify that one contestant in a given game is not playing for love with the other striving for the win ?
En tout cas, L'oeuf is not out of the game yet, I think. It is hardly nonsensical that the score nought = 0 = goose egg = L'oeuf = love.
"Love" for L'oeuf is a term that might well have been uttered by some Tudor monarchs, who we know were fond of playing tennis and spoke both French and English.
<<Why do you characterise it as far fetched, Damian ? >>
Perhaps it may not be "far-fetched" per se, but it is an incorrect Etymology (reminds me of 'flirt'). Just like sightings of Nessie, some leod will always see FRENCH in every floating turd and billow, and try to serve up a hearty FRENCH omelette at every obscure term and phrase. But the truth of the matter is that 'love' = "nought" = *English* through and through.
I too no longer see sundered out etymologies for 'love' (< l'oeuf) where I was wont to in the past.
Think of it though. Does it make sense to say "score 15 : the egg"? 'Egg' is used to represent a written, *graphical* nought, not a score of 'nothing'. L'oeuf would only make sense if we were looking at a circle drawn to paper signifying the zero, not the score of zero itself. This is just how false etymolgies get started, because they are sensible and logical, they seem to make sense, and they tickle the ear, but they're pure fiction.
Perhaps it may not be "far-fetched" per se, but it is an incorrect Etymology (reminds me of 'flirt'). Just like sightings of Nessie, some leod will always see FRENCH in every floating turd and billow, and try to serve up a hearty FRENCH omelette at every obscure term and phrase. But the truth of the matter is that 'love' = "nought" = *English* through and through.
I too no longer see sundered out etymologies for 'love' (< l'oeuf) where I was wont to in the past.
Think of it though. Does it make sense to say "score 15 : the egg"? 'Egg' is used to represent a written, *graphical* nought, not a score of 'nothing'. L'oeuf would only make sense if we were looking at a circle drawn to paper signifying the zero, not the score of zero itself. This is just how false etymolgies get started, because they are sensible and logical, they seem to make sense, and they tickle the ear, but they're pure fiction.
Haha - well, I'm waiting for Damian to weigh in on your slighting of Nessie, as though the poor creature didn't exist !
[From ''Humour, Wit and Satire of the Seventeenth Century'' :]
THE FRENCH DANCING-MASTER AND THE ENGLISH SOLDIER
Or, the Difference betwixt Fidling and Fighting
Displayed in a DIALOGUE betwixt an ENGLISHMAN
and a FRENCHMAN.
ENGLISHMAN.
Monsieur, good morn, whither away so faste?
Some great importance sure doth cause this haste;
Your running looks do in effect thus say,
Monsieur is gone, 'cause Landlord asketh pay.
FRENCHMAN.
Begar me no sush man, me scorn de shift
Me plus Affaires dat me from home do lift.
ENGLISHMAN.
You scorn to shift, tis true I think you say,
Witness your Shirt, not washt this many a day.
FRENCHMAN.
Par me foy de Rascall to degrase,
Ne autre man in de varle live in such case;
Begar though me no speak si bon English,
Me thrush Tord in de belly if de speak dis;
Begar me born Gentil-man de France
Me can learn English a le mode de Dance:
Me play ode leetle Fidle, me can sing,
Par ma foy, no Poet Orphus sush Musick bring;
Begar, you no sush man in all de England have,
For de Fidle, and de Dancing brave.
ENGLISHMAN.
But when you come to meet your Foe in face
The Fidler and the Fidle's out of case.
FRENCHMAN.
Begar de art Jack-napes to a teetle,
Me be brave Fellow, me can feight a leetle;
Me wear Feader in de Hat, me have Tord by side,
Me be de Gentil-man when me on de Horse ride;
Englishman be a Clown, make Leg like a de Beare,
Frenchman be de Gentil-man, he fidle, and he dance rare.
ENGLISHMAN.
'Tis true, in dancing you do us excel,
But can you, as the English, fight as well?
When Mars unsheaths his Sword, and Canons roar,
And men lye welt'ring in their purple gore,
When Towns are burnt, and Cities are destroy'd,
To what use will your Dancing be employed?
FRENCHMAN.
Begar he de great Fool to speak sush ting,
Brava, brava, de Dance, de Fidele, Sing;
No sush ting in de varle, to peepe, to dance,
To be dreass like de Madam, a le Mode France.
ENGLISHMAN.
Brave Monsieur! gallant Monsieur! wondrous rare!
Fidling and fooling, none with thee compare!
FRENCHMAN.
Begar, he be de Rogue, de Villain, de Carle,
To speak 'gainst de Dance, de brave ting in de varle;
Begar me do love it out of all de Cry,
Par ma foy he speak 'gainst it, tell loud lye:
France-man is de Gentilman in de high Sphere,
Vat is de Clown vas de skip de Angleterre
De French Monsieur skip and leap like de Spright,
He caper and kick, is not dat a rare Shite?
ENGLISHMAN.
A rare Shite indeed, I needs must say,
To see men skip like Puppets in a Play;
To act the Mimick, fidle, prate and Dance,
And cringe like Apes, is a le Mode France:
But to be resolute, one to fight with ten,
And beat them, 's proper unto English men.
FRENCHMAN.
Begar France man is couragio, feight like de Tiffell,
He kill, he slay, cutt men off de midle;
De brave Monsieurs, de Oliver, de Rowland,
Begar de feight as long as de could stand;
Amadis de Gaule, de Roy Charlemain,
De make blood run down like drops of de rain,
Begar, with new fashion so exc'lent! so rare!
No men in de varle wid de French make compare.
ENGLISHMAN.
But Monsieur, have you never heard report
Of Poictiers, Crescy, and of Agen-court?
When France was drown'd with streams of Frenchmen's blood,
And English Valor could not be withstood?
Sixth HENRY in Paris Crown'd in State,
And France (submissive) did on England wait.
When only TALBOT's Name did bear such sway,
To make Ten thousand French men run away?
Is not France, and the Nation still the same,
Whom England did in all Encounters tame?
Have we not Hero's still who are endu'd
With Valor, (stars of the first Magnitude?)
YORKS Duke, brave ALBEMARLE, equal to those
Our Ancestors, who French men did oppose?
With other Worthies of deserved Fame,
Make Frenchmen tremble for to hear their Name.
FRENCHMAN.
Begar, dis true, de English-man speak right,
France leave de Dance, and now de learn to Fight.
Adieu, Monsieur.
- LONDON, Printed in the year 1666 -
~.o0o.~
[From ''Humour, Wit and Satire of the Seventeenth Century'' :]
THE FRENCH DANCING-MASTER AND THE ENGLISH SOLDIER
Or, the Difference betwixt Fidling and Fighting
Displayed in a DIALOGUE betwixt an ENGLISHMAN
and a FRENCHMAN.
ENGLISHMAN.
Monsieur, good morn, whither away so faste?
Some great importance sure doth cause this haste;
Your running looks do in effect thus say,
Monsieur is gone, 'cause Landlord asketh pay.
FRENCHMAN.
Begar me no sush man, me scorn de shift
Me plus Affaires dat me from home do lift.
ENGLISHMAN.
You scorn to shift, tis true I think you say,
Witness your Shirt, not washt this many a day.
FRENCHMAN.
Par me foy de Rascall to degrase,
Ne autre man in de varle live in such case;
Begar though me no speak si bon English,
Me thrush Tord in de belly if de speak dis;
Begar me born Gentil-man de France
Me can learn English a le mode de Dance:
Me play ode leetle Fidle, me can sing,
Par ma foy, no Poet Orphus sush Musick bring;
Begar, you no sush man in all de England have,
For de Fidle, and de Dancing brave.
ENGLISHMAN.
But when you come to meet your Foe in face
The Fidler and the Fidle's out of case.
FRENCHMAN.
Begar de art Jack-napes to a teetle,
Me be brave Fellow, me can feight a leetle;
Me wear Feader in de Hat, me have Tord by side,
Me be de Gentil-man when me on de Horse ride;
Englishman be a Clown, make Leg like a de Beare,
Frenchman be de Gentil-man, he fidle, and he dance rare.
ENGLISHMAN.
'Tis true, in dancing you do us excel,
But can you, as the English, fight as well?
When Mars unsheaths his Sword, and Canons roar,
And men lye welt'ring in their purple gore,
When Towns are burnt, and Cities are destroy'd,
To what use will your Dancing be employed?
FRENCHMAN.
Begar he de great Fool to speak sush ting,
Brava, brava, de Dance, de Fidele, Sing;
No sush ting in de varle, to peepe, to dance,
To be dreass like de Madam, a le Mode France.
ENGLISHMAN.
Brave Monsieur! gallant Monsieur! wondrous rare!
Fidling and fooling, none with thee compare!
FRENCHMAN.
Begar, he be de Rogue, de Villain, de Carle,
To speak 'gainst de Dance, de brave ting in de varle;
Begar me do love it out of all de Cry,
Par ma foy he speak 'gainst it, tell loud lye:
France-man is de Gentilman in de high Sphere,
Vat is de Clown vas de skip de Angleterre
De French Monsieur skip and leap like de Spright,
He caper and kick, is not dat a rare Shite?
ENGLISHMAN.
A rare Shite indeed, I needs must say,
To see men skip like Puppets in a Play;
To act the Mimick, fidle, prate and Dance,
And cringe like Apes, is a le Mode France:
But to be resolute, one to fight with ten,
And beat them, 's proper unto English men.
FRENCHMAN.
Begar France man is couragio, feight like de Tiffell,
He kill, he slay, cutt men off de midle;
De brave Monsieurs, de Oliver, de Rowland,
Begar de feight as long as de could stand;
Amadis de Gaule, de Roy Charlemain,
De make blood run down like drops of de rain,
Begar, with new fashion so exc'lent! so rare!
No men in de varle wid de French make compare.
ENGLISHMAN.
But Monsieur, have you never heard report
Of Poictiers, Crescy, and of Agen-court?
When France was drown'd with streams of Frenchmen's blood,
And English Valor could not be withstood?
Sixth HENRY in Paris Crown'd in State,
And France (submissive) did on England wait.
When only TALBOT's Name did bear such sway,
To make Ten thousand French men run away?
Is not France, and the Nation still the same,
Whom England did in all Encounters tame?
Have we not Hero's still who are endu'd
With Valor, (stars of the first Magnitude?)
YORKS Duke, brave ALBEMARLE, equal to those
Our Ancestors, who French men did oppose?
With other Worthies of deserved Fame,
Make Frenchmen tremble for to hear their Name.
FRENCHMAN.
Begar, dis true, de English-man speak right,
France leave de Dance, and now de learn to Fight.
Adieu, Monsieur.
- LONDON, Printed in the year 1666 -
~.o0o.~
Zero is a Phoenician word.
When articulating zero from English secondary speaking posture, "love" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
When articulating zero from English primary speaking posture, "nought" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
When articulating "nought" with/from GRECOnglish/GC /P/Ch/abR speaking posture, "nil" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
Comparative phonetics
http://voicespec.com/board.cgi?id=test1
http://voicespec.com/
When articulating zero from English secondary speaking posture, "love" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
When articulating zero from English primary speaking posture, "nought" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
When articulating "nought" with/from GRECOnglish/GC /P/Ch/abR speaking posture, "nil" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
Comparative phonetics
http://voicespec.com/board.cgi?id=test1
http://voicespec.com/
Correcting as follows:
Zero is a Phoenician word.
When articulating zero from English secondary speaking posture, "love" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
When articulating zero from English primary speaking posture, "nought" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
When articulating "nought" with/from GRECOnglish/GC /S/Ch speaking posture, "nil" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
Comparative phonetics
http://voicespec.com/board.cgi?id=test1
http://voicespec.com/
Zero is a Phoenician word.
When articulating zero from English secondary speaking posture, "love" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
When articulating zero from English primary speaking posture, "nought" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
When articulating "nought" with/from GRECOnglish/GC /S/Ch speaking posture, "nil" is metaphthong/MPh pronounced.
Comparative phonetics
http://voicespec.com/board.cgi?id=test1
http://voicespec.com/
"." wrote :
>>L'oeuf would only make sense if we were looking at a circle drawn to paper signifying the zero, not the score of zero itself.>>
Now, that stricture does seem just a smidgen on the literal-minded side, does it not ?- Perhaps to the point of mania ?
I suspect generations of tennis players were likely capable of swinging a racket with their eye on the ball whilst simultaneously visualising a conceptual zero score as an ovoid.
Hence, 0 = goose egg = L'oeuf = love. Fancy that ?
Look, Ma, no hands !- And no paper required !- Very plausible !
>>L'oeuf would only make sense if we were looking at a circle drawn to paper signifying the zero, not the score of zero itself.>>
Now, that stricture does seem just a smidgen on the literal-minded side, does it not ?- Perhaps to the point of mania ?
I suspect generations of tennis players were likely capable of swinging a racket with their eye on the ball whilst simultaneously visualising a conceptual zero score as an ovoid.
Hence, 0 = goose egg = L'oeuf = love. Fancy that ?
Look, Ma, no hands !- And no paper required !- Very plausible !