Pronunciation of 'France' | Antimoon Forum

In French and English 'France' is spelt the same though pronounced different.

Are there any English accents that has embraced the French pronunciation over the 'English' pronunciation of this word? If so which of accents use them?

I have also heard another example of the pronounciation of 'Lieutenant' is pronounced using the French pronunciation by some English accents.

Can you also give me other examples of these? It doesn't have to be based on the French language only.

I'm sorry for my bad English.

Good day - Thankyou

Johannes
14 Years old
Nordboren
Deutschland/Germany

I think "France" much is pronounced much as the French do in many parts of England. Americans use the short-A sound instead.

The British also tend to say "lieutenant" as "leftenant", while Americans say "lootenant", which is closer to the French version.

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In the parts of the UK that underwent the "broad A" change, "France" is pronounced with [A], the vowel in "father." In other parts of the UK it's pronounced with the vowel in "cat," which can be [{] or [a] depending on region. This is the older pronunciation that didn't go thru the "broad A" change and is also found in North America.

It's kind of hard to compare with French because French uses a nasal vowel in the pronunciation of "France" and there's no epenthetic [t] that occurs between the [n] and [s] as occurs in many/most English dialects. Also, the French <r> [R] is different, and depending on which French dialect we're talking about it may actually be a two-syllable word (the final <e> representing a schwa in many Southern French dialects).

<<The British also tend to say "lieutenant" as "leftenant", while Americans say "lootenant", which is closer to the French version.>>

Yes, this comes from the day when and <v> were not distinguished in spelling (centuries ago) so the word acquired a spelling pronunciation in British English with /v/ (which eventually devoiced to /f/) while the non-spelling pronunciation is heard in the American pronunciation of the word.

<<Yes, this comes from the day when and <v> were not distinguished in spelling (centuries ago) so the word acquired a spelling pronunciation in British English with /v/ (which eventually devoiced to /f/) while the non-spelling pronunciation is heard in the American pronunciation of the word.>>

That's not even remotely true. The British/Commonwealth pronunciation comes from the time of the Hundred Year War. The English refused to use the French pronunciation of the word, and started using 'leftenant' instead.

<<That's not even remotely true. The British/Commonwealth pronunciation comes from the time of the Hundred Year War. The English refused to use the French pronunciation of the word, and started using 'leftenant' instead.>>

The word is first recorded in 1357, as noted by the Oxford English dictionary, and even at that time several different spellings are noted. As cited by oed.com:

1375: lutenand, luf-tenand
1387: leeftenaunt, lutenant, levetenaunt
1480: lyeutenaunt

And so on...

Here's the Wikipedia article on the pronunciation of the word:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant

As listed in the article there are several different theories out there as to how the pronunciation arose but the explanation I've seen most often (and in the most reliable linguistic sources) has been one pegging it to a spelling pronunciation.

According to etymonline.com's entry at:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=lieutenant&searchmode=none

"Pronunciation with lef- is common in Britain, and spellings to reflect it date back to 14c., but the origin of it is mysterious."

Neither oed.com, the Wikipedia article, nor etymonline mention anything about the Hundred Year's War nor a British refusal to use a French-like pronunciation. At best it seems mysterious, tho from the evidence I've seen I would think a spelling pronunciation is at least plausible.

--p.s., By the way, such explanations involving things like refusal to use a foreign-like pronunciation (and neither pronunciation is particularly that close to the French one anyway so that's the first misstep in such an argument) and the like tend to be inaccurate and little more than folk-linguistic explanations (another one that comes to mind is the folk-linguistic explanation that Spaniards lisp because some king way back when did it and they all imitated him) tho if you came up with a credible source I'd be interested in seeing it.

Oh I should mention that to be fair I just read another section from oed.com's entry on the word and the oed doesn't consider the spelling pronunciation hypothesis to be the most plausible but still can only conclude its pronunciation is "difficult to explain."

I completely discount your explanation as utterly false.

Oh I should mention that to be fair I just read another section from oed.com's entry on the word and the oed doesn't consider the spelling pronunciation hypothesis to be the most plausible but still can only conclude its pronunciation is "difficult to explain."

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Hmm, this may not be the real Kazoo, as I don't remember Kazoo being so caustic. Anyway, I've put in my two cents in for "lieutenant"--back to the original topic...

Point taken. I've never heard the explanation you've given.

What just happened? It wanted me to log in.

<<It's kind of hard to compare with French because French uses a nasal vowel in the pronunciation of "France" and there's no epenthetic [t] that occurs between the [n] and [s] as occurs in many/most English dialects. Also, the French <r> [R] is different, and depending on which French dialect we're talking about it may actually be a two-syllable word (the final <e> representing a schwa in many Southern French dialects).>>

As a speaker of french who has been told that I don't even have a foreign accent I have to say that Kir's comments are 100% accurate. I coulnd't have summarised it better myself in so few words.

I'll just add one thing though. In some southern French accents, nasal vowels do not exist. Thus the "an" would be pronounced the way "ane" (meaning donkey in French and having a circomflex over the 'a') is pronounced - with the 'a' fully open. The French 'r' is guttural and does not sound like the English 'r' nor like the Spanish rolled 'r'. This is the one most important aspect which separates a "good" French accent from a "bad" foreign accent. If you can get that 'r' right, you've won half the battle as far as sounding like a native speaker (without regard to grammar and vocabulary, of course). In casual speech "France" is one syllable but in songs it can sometimes be two syllables with the second being a schwa.

I come from the North West of England, and we pronounce France is a short A than a long A.

England was ruled by the French (or rather the Normans) for almost 100 years (1066 - 1154), so us English like to show our "gratitude" to our pals the French by pronouncing incoreectly the names of all the towns in England founded by the Normans.

e.g. Beaulieu, in Hampshire, founded by the Normans, means "beautiful place" (which it is). But we pronounce it "bewly."

I suppose only VERY posh people in England pronounce "France" the way the French do. They say it like "Frawnce."

Adam, I usually say "FrAnce" and I'm not even English. I'm a RP speaker from Greece as you probably already know. I would imagine that a person of your superior knowledge, culture, and intellect would also be an RP speaker, regardless of where in England you're from. Of course, in RP, "France" takes broad 'a' and not flat 'a'. When addressing certain speakers, however, I'll posh down my accent and say "France" (flat 'a') instead. Most British people think I sound quite posh and foreigners... well, they find my accent ultra-posh British.

There are a few esoteric aspects (besides broad 'a') which characterise conservative RP and which many people (especially those attempting to imitate it) are not aware of. The se include the use of the 'kit' vowe' rather than the 'fleece' vowel in 'y' ending words (or even something approaching the 'e' ngrave in French). U-RP also uses 'kit' in the final syllable of the plural of such words (symphonies, controversies, copies, etc.) Let's also not forget the use of tapped 'r' in intervocalic environments and the very open second element of the 'near' and 'square' words.

If you think I'm making any of this up I'm willing to meet you face to face the next time I'm in the UK. Most Britons are actually shocked at the quality of my English after they've found out I'm just a foreigner.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make here is that if someone like me can pull off RP than so can you (being English you outrank me). Something even tells that you probably CAN pull off RP if you want to but you simply choose not to so that your friends won't think you're too uppity. Am I right?

Adam : « I suppose only VERY posh people in England pronounce "France" the way the French do. They say it like "Frawnce." »

Prononciations françaises : [fRÃs] [fRÃs@] [fRÃNs@] [fRÃNs6];

"Frawnce" ~ [fr\O:nt_s]

D'ailleurs <France> pouvait s'écrire <Fraunce> en ancien français d'outre-Manche et en moyen-anglais — et s'écrit toujours de cette façon en Scots, je crois.

AFOM :
« Sy le Roys de Fraunce respont, ke ly plest ke li Roys de Engleterre s’en entremetre de ceste bosoyne; respoignent e requerent ly message, ke il plese au Roys de Fraunce, ke la trewe soit alongee; kar li termes de la truwe, ke est ore, est trop brefs pur parler de si graunt bosoygne, com ceste est. »

MA :
« Bathe Flaundrez and Fraunce fre til him seluyn,
Holaund and Henawde they helde of hym bothen,
Burgoyne and Brabane and Bretayn the Lesse,
Gyan and Gothelande and Grace the ryche; »

Sc :
« The French Republic, or Fraunce (French République française, or France) is a kintra in wastren Europe. It is the biggest kintra in Europe efter the Ukraine an Roushie. Its caipital is Paris. »

Kirk :
« 1375: lutenand, luf-tenand
1387: leeftenaunt, lutenant, levetenaunt
1480: lyeutenaunt »
Peut-être que l'apparition de [f] puis <f> est due à une réinterprétation de en <v> ?