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What language is easiest for Spanish Speakers to understand?
in fact, there is no grammatical feature of Portuguese that doesn't/didn't exist in Spanish, and vice versa.
Future Subjunctive is olsolete in Modern Spanish?
-not at all, standard language of some areas (legislature) still use it, so it is quite common to find this usage in modern laws/continutions of Spanish speaking countries, and yes
-Spanish and Latinamerican children still use it at schools
Future Subjunctive is still used in Portuguese?
-yes, and no
-with some verbs it is still used in informal speech, but with some verbs, simple infinitive is preferred: SE VOCÊ A VIR [If you [happen to] see her]
is normally said:
a) Se você a ver [in Portugal]
b) Se você ver ela [in Brazil]
(in both cases, Future subjuntive has been replaced by more regular infinitive, the same thing in QUANDO O SOL SE PÔR, when the Sun sets, [with infinitive]more used than QUANDO O SOL SE PUSER (with Future Subjunctive)
-this means that in Portuguese (at least in Brazil) Future Subjunctive is being replaced by simple infinitive. Infinitive instead of Future Subjunctive allows usage of Enclisis in Brazilian formal language: SE VOCÊ VÊ-LA (If you happen to see her), SE VOCÊ PROCURÁ-LOS (if you look for them).
Inflected infinitive is still used?
-well, I don't know about Portugal, but in Brazil, inflected infinitive is almost never inflected, you simply put the subject in the front of the infinitive, and this is called personal infinitive:
EU IR ''me going''
VOCÊ IR ''you going''
A GENTE IR ''us going''
and so on.
ESTÁ NA HORA DE EU IR. = It's time for me to go.
ESTÁ NA HORA DE VOCÊ IR. = It's time for you to go.
ESTÁ NA HORA DA GENTE IR. = It's time for us to go.
As we can see, the same structure exists in English.
Furthermore, personal infinitive exists in SOuthern American Spanish, and it is used the same way as in Brazil:
(1) Antes de actuar Caballé, el público estaba expectante. (Modern Spanish)
(2) Los quales creerían yo no haber leido las reglas. (Golden-Age Spanish)
in fact, there is no grammatical feature of Portuguese that doesn't/didn't exist in Spanish, and vice versa.
Future Subjunctive is obsolete in Modern Spanish?
-not at all, standard language of some areas (legislature) still use it, so it is quite common to find this usage in modern laws/continutions of Spanish speaking countries, and yes
-Spanish and Latinamerican children still use it at schools
Future Subjunctive is still used in Portuguese?
-yes, and no
-with some verbs it is still used in informal speech, but with some verbs, simple infinitive is preferred: SE VOCÊ A VIR [If you [happen to] see her]
is normally said:
a) Se você a ver [in Portugal]
b) Se você ver ela [in Brazil]
(in both cases, Future subjuntive has been replaced by more regular infinitive, the same thing in QUANDO O SOL SE PÔR, when the Sun sets, [with infinitive]more used than QUANDO O SOL SE PUSER (with Future Subjunctive)
-this means that in Portuguese (at least in Brazil) Future Subjunctive is being replaced by simple infinitive. Infinitive instead of Future Subjunctive allows usage of Enclisis in Brazilian formal language: SE VOCÊ VÊ-LA (If you happen to see her), SE VOCÊ PROCURÁ-LOS (if you look for them).
Inflected infinitive is still used?
-well, I don't know about Portugal, but in Brazil, inflected infinitive is almost never inflected, you simply put the subject in the front of the infinitive, and this is called personal infinitive:
EU IR ''me going''
VOCÊ IR ''you going''
A GENTE IR ''us going''
and so on.
ESTÁ NA HORA DE EU IR. = It's time for me to go.
ESTÁ NA HORA DE VOCÊ IR. = It's time for you to go.
ESTÁ NA HORA DA GENTE IR. = It's time for us to go.
As we can see, the same structure exists in English.
Furthermore, personal infinitive exists in SOuthern American Spanish, and it is used the same way as in Brazil:
(1) Antes de actuar Caballé, el público estaba expectante. (Modern Spanish)
(2) Los quales creerían yo no haber leido las reglas. (Golden-Age Spanish)
me:
««you'd have to be fluent in Spanish to understad EVERYTHING I wrote.»»
I totally agree with you. One thing is written Spanish that gives you all the time in the world to think about what a word may mean or resemble, another is to listen to the word with a different accent and be able to mentally translate everything to Portuguese while you listen to someone speaking. And it is almost impossible to do when the Castilian words are pronounced by a non native speaker that adds his own accent to make things worst.
To understand this would be a headache, only with drawings:
"Un buzón es una caja alargada con una ranura por donde se introduce el correo. "
"El caucho es ampliamente utilizado en la fabricación de artículos impermeables y aislantes."
"La bufanda es un complemento de ropa largo y estrecho que se coloca alrededor del cuello para protegerlo del frío."
"Una baldosa es una pieza manufacturada, normalmente horneada, que puede ser de distintos materiales."
And don't forget that the different accents of Castilian speaker are also a source of confusion.
John:
««I've always wanted to know which of the two languages is older..they are too similar and I don't think that Spanish was born near the Portuguese border..so how can they be almost identical? My opinion is that Portuguese was spawned from Spanish being that Spain onced ruled over Portugal and once Portugal got it's independence it created a language seperate from Spanish? I'm not sure and once again it's just an opinion! What do you guys think? »»
I personally think you have a GREAT IMAGINATION.
Portugal was ruled by the two Spanish Filipes from 1580 to1640. What language did the Portuguese speak before?
PORTUGUESE of course! Portuguese is older than Castilian.
The first known change that characterises the romance Galician-Portuguese is the affricate tš (africada tš) around the VI century.
The first document that already has Portuguese words written is from 870 d.C,(remember everything was written in Latin but people no longer spoke Latin).
The several documents that appear at this time are known as Proto-Portuguese or Portuguese protohistoric.
In this part of the document written in 870 d.C you can see clearly that there are already words written in Portuguese e.g. “parte de que isto”.
“Fofino. Gaton. astrilli. Arguiru. Vestremiru. Guinilli. et Aragunti placitum facimus inter nos unus ad per scripturam firmitatis notum die quod erit IIII.º nonas aprilis era DCCCCª XIIª super ipsa eclesia et super nostras hereditates quantas habuerimus et ganare potuerimus usque ad obitum nostrum. que non habeamus licentiam super illas nec uindere nec donare nec testare in parte extranea nisi unus ad allios. aut ad ipsa eclesia uocabulo sancti andree apostoli et qui minima facerit et istum placitum excesserit pariet parte de que isto placito obseruauerit X boues de XIIIm XIIIm modios et indicato, nos pernominatos in hoc placito manus nostras ro+++++++ uoramus. “
http://www.novomilenio.inf.br/idioma/200009a.htm
The Galician-Portuguese poetry was famous in the Iberian Christian kingdoms. It was the favorite language for poetry. The “Cantigas de Santa Maria “ is well known:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantigas_de_Santa_Maria
««and I don't think that Spanish was born near the Portuguese border..»»
No it was not born near the border.
Castilian was born in the IX century when the region that would become the county of Castile was re-populated by Cantabrian, Asturian, and Bascos.
Its origins are the languages Astur-Leonese (astur-llïonés o bable) spoken by the Cantabrians and Asturians, and Basque.
After the Reconquest this dialect was mixed with Mozarabic and became Castilian.
To answer your question: Portuguese is much older than Castilian. Castilian derived directly from three Iberian Languages: Astur-Leonese, Basque and Mozarabic.
Portuguese derived directly from Celtiberian and Latin ( a smaller Germanic influence too) and the southern speach was influenced by Lusitanian Mozarabic.
Castilian derided from Astur-Leonese. You can listen to Mirandese a variety of Astur-Leonese a language spoken in North Portugal (Astur-Leonese is not yet an official language in Spain):
http://www.mirandes.net/index2.asp?idcat=1008
http://www.mirandes.net/
Summary:
1-Portuguese is older than Castilian.
2-Castilian derives directly from Astur-Leonese, Basque and Mozarabic.
3-Portuguese derives directly from Celtiberian, Latin, and bit of Germanic too. And in the Souther Portuguese speach it was also influenced by Lusitanian Mozarabic.
*Iberian Languages:
Iberian as from Iberian peninsula not the Iberian spoken by pre-Roman people.
I see your point, but how can two languages that are so close can have been derived from different sources? There had to have been a short union at some point in history that brought the two languages much closer together. You also can't say that its because the languages are latin based because there are words of non-Latin origin that is only common to Portuguese and Castilian.
Me....if I, a Panamanian, understood almost all of the paragraph in Portuguese, then why is it so puzzling to some of you that a Portuguese would also understand almost all of the Spanish? Jorge, the Portuguese speaker already said that he understood practically all of the paragraph in Spanish. As such, an educated Portuguese speaker does not need to be fluent in Spanish to understand anything written in Spanish, and an educated Spanish speaker does not need to be fluent in Portuguese to understand anything written in Portuguese. This is not rocket science folks.
Yes, Portuguese is older than Spanish. And although the former developed separately from Spanish, there remains between the two languages, to this day, a great deal of language uniformity, especially in terms of vocabulary and syntax. Plus, I would hazard a guess that when Portugal was under Spain, 1580-1640, the Portuguese lanuguage underwent changes which made it closer to Spanish. And, during those 60 years, the Spanish language was also influenced by the already popular soft and poetic sounding Galego-Portuguese. Let's not forget that Galego-Portuguese was "able to exert such pressure in the 13th century, that it led to a situation of dual official status for Galego-Portuguese and Latin [in medieval Iberia] in notarial documents, edicts, lawsuits, etc." So, Portuguese and Spanish have always been connected, intertwined, in some way, shape, or form, for almost a thousand years. That said, it shouldn't surprise anyone that Portuguese and Spanish are still the most closely related modern Romance languages in the world today.
Correction: what i meant to say is that during those 60 years (1580-1640), the Portuguese language was influenced by Spanish and vice-versa. And Castilian was influenced by Galego-Portuguese in medieval times for the reasons I already explained. In other words, each language influenced the other at certain times in history. I just wanted to clear this up.
Plus, there was constant intermarriage between the Portguese and Spanish royal families - this also helped foster closeness between the two languages.
Brazilian Portuguese is closer to Classical Portuguese than European Portuguese.
Let's take this for example:
''Quantas coisas em vão estou falando'' written by Camões.
It's the way any Brazilians says.
European Portuguese of today would say:
''Quantas coisas em vão estou a dizer''
Falar (instead of dizer) for ''to say, to tell'' and gerund
are typically Brazilian usages. Many European prescriptivist would ban this usage for ''Brazilianism'' not knowing their own Camões was writing ''in the Brazilian way''
JGreco
««I see your point, but how can two languages that are so close can have been derived from different sources? There had to have been a short union at some point in history that brought the two languages much closer together.»»
The two languages did not derive from different sources, the sources are the same. Astur-Leonese is very close to Portuguese.
All Romance languages in Iberian peninsula are very close. Read the "Cantigas de Santa Maria" that were writen in the XIII century. Now, you tell me that you think the two languages, Portuguese and Castilian, became even closer since then?
http://faculty.washington.edu/petersen/alfonso/cant10e.htm
http://www.historiaviva.org/cantigas/indice.shtml
Obviously that it was Portuguese-Galician and Astur-Leonese that were very close.
««You also can't say that its because the languages are latin based because there are words of non-Latin origin that is only common to Portuguese and Castilian..»»
What words? Iberian words? Celtic words? Germanic words and Arab words from Visigotia and Al-Andaluz time? What words are those? Have you looked them up in Catalan, Aragonese, Mirandese , Leonese, Asturian, or Ladino languages? You could not find those words in those other Iberian languages?
Don't forget that besides Hispania there was also, Visigotia and Al-Andaluz:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigotia
Tell me..how is Portuguese older than Spanish? no..show me proof
Guest:
««Plus, I would hazard a guess that when Portugal was under Spain, 1580-1640, the Portuguese lanuguage underwent changes which made it closer to Spanish. And, during those 60 years, the Spanish language was also influenced by the already popular soft and poetic sounding Galego-Portuguese. »»
Some vocabulary entered in both languages, obviously, but very little.
If you read Portuguese authors before and after the Spanish ruling you can see that there was no Castilian influence:
Garcia de Resende wrote "Cancioneiro Geral" in 1516:
http://alfarrabio.di.uminho.pt/vercial/resende.htm
António de Sousa Macedo (1606-1682) was born during the Spanish rule:
http://alfarrabio.di.uminho.pt/vercial/amacedo.htm
John
««Tell me..how is Portuguese older than Spanish? no..show me proof»»
John we know the time when Castilian was born. A new language was born when people from diferent places speaking diferent languages got together in the same place in the IX century.
You have to read some Spanish history:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condado_de_Castilla
Now look at the capital of Gallaecia, Bracara Augusta, look at the number of bishops, look at the dates. What language you think the romance spoken by the people that lived in that region evolved to become? Galician-Portuguese.
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquidiocese_de_Braga
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