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Lovely Low German audio example
Serbo-Canadian in China,
You are clearly not a linguist and your knowledge of Dutch seems to be extremely limited.If you don't have somethin usefull to add just refrain from discussing.
>>Travis,
I haven't got a particular problem with the way the dialect is written, but it sounds.<< The writing part is actually essentially political, as it is much easier to recognize, use in official capacity, and teach something with an "standard" orthography. The goal here would be to push the point of Low Saxon as being specifically distinct from High German and pushing its actual usage outside of the contexts that people use words like "dialect" (in that sense of the word) for. People are far more likely to perceive things without a clearly visible literary language and like as mere "dialect", but even if they only ever see such writing merely on signs such will help push the point politically. The other reason was to provide a unified literary language in the place of individuals simply writing "phonetically" in their own individual dialects. Even while some might dislike giving up writing in their own particular dialects, it would help increase the overall actual use of Low Saxon/East Low German in writing by making writing in such far more widely readable through a far more uniform orthography (from what I have heard, much "phonetically" written Low Saxon and East Low German at the present are quite unreadable in practice). By making such far more widely readable, it would help encourage its overall use on a larger scale outside of just "dialect literature" and whatnot. However, I was also positing the use of such as a deliberate prescriptive (yes, I know, I normally hate prescriptivist views) influence upon Low Saxon and East Low German dialects, just as standard Hochdeutsch has had upon High German dialects, but with the purpose of effectively intentionally marking any High German influence as at the very least "non-standard". >>Today most if not all versions of Low Saxon and East Low German are high german dialects...<< To call them "High German dialects", though, is essentially counterproductive, as it is effectively giving them up to High German influence. Rather, one should seeking to "purify" them of High German influence, which of course requires viewing them as Low Saxon and East Low German dialects, albeit possibly ones with heavy High German influence.
jav, you are clearly not a linguist but a reader of material and your acoustic faculties are non-existant.
~ (Ignoring Serbo-Canadian in China) ~
Travis, >>To call them "High German dialects", though, is essentially counterproductive, as it is effectively giving them up to High German influence. Rather, one should seeking to "purify" them of High German influence, which of course requires viewing them as Low Saxon and East Low German dialects, albeit possibly ones with heavy High German influence. << Most East Low German and also (to a really great extent) Low Saxon dialects are just High German with a disappearing influence of "real" Low German and Low Saxon.In some areas the dialects are already been reduced to mere accents. In my opinion, "purifying" is already too late.We should document the language as much as possible and start seeing it as a remnant of the high middle ages.
>>Most East Low German and also (to a really great extent) Low Saxon dialects are just High German with a disappearing influence of "real" Low German and Low Saxon.In some areas the dialects are already been reduced to mere accents.<<
You most likely belong to the school of people who view West Frisian as a mere dialect of Dutch, with such a position. And that said, I very well know the difference between High German with a (very) strong Low Saxon or East Low German substratum and Low Saxon and East Low German proper. I have seen the former in use in Real Life in chatting, but have only actually seen the latter, Low Saxon and East Low German proper, in use in written articles. But even in the former case, if how it is pronounced at all corresponds to how it is written, it is still not a mere "accent" as you claim, even though it is not Low Saxon or East Low German either.
Please read better Travis and do not make assumptions, ;-)
>>You most likely belong to the school of people who view West Frisian as a mere dialect of Dutch, with such a position. << No, Frisian is a genuine language, as is its West Frisian variant. However, the West Frisian dialect is a dialect of Dutch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Frisian_%28dialect%29 >>And that said, I very well know the difference between High German with a (very) strong Low Saxon or East Low German substratum and Low Saxon and East Low German proper.<< You can leave out the "(very)" and even the "strong" part Travis, as it's extremely rare. >>it is still not a mere "accent" as you claim, even though it is not Low Saxon or East Low German either. << The bulk of people that claim to speak Low Saxon or East Low German are infact speakers of high German dialects with sufficient influx of Low German dialects.The actual "language" is dieing rapidly.
>>No, Frisian is a genuine language, as is its West Frisian variant.<<
What I meant is that your arguments were just like those who argue that West Frisian is practically just a dialect of Dutch on the basis of things such as crossintelligibility and general lexical distance, and who reject the notion of separateness on genetic grounds alone. >>You can leave out the "(very)" and even the "strong" part Travis, as it's extremely rare.<< At least in the cases that I have seen, they looked pretty much like some High German dialect with much of the vocabulary being cut-and-pasted into it from Low Saxon or East Low German, to the point that it looked like a Low German language until you looked at the grammar. I would not call that a mere "accent" (a term implying little actual difference) myself at all. >>The bulk of people that claim to speak Low Saxon or East Low German are infact speakers of high German dialects with sufficient influx of Low German dialects.The actual "language" is dieing rapidly.<< Might you think of the possibility that individuals could be bilingual in both High German and Low Saxon/East Low German? Considering that such was already the case by the time of the Napoleonic Wars, then by your argument sucn must have already become extinct then... And remember, diglossia language/dialect death does not make, or else the Alemannic dialects would be "dead" (which they most definitely are not; actually, they are slowly displacing standard Hochdeutsch in Switzerland today).
>>Might you think of the possibility that individuals could be bilingual in both High German and Low Saxon/East Low German? Considering that such was already the case by the time of the Napoleonic Wars, then by your argument sucn must have already become extinct then...
<< There is no point in denying that Low Saxon, or low German dialects as a whole are disappearing in Germany. A billingual speaker of both High German and Low Saxon/East Low German ... hmm, I'd say that since the Napoleonic Wars the "order" has been changed. Whereas then you were a native Low Saxon/East low German speaker who also spoke fluent high German. Nowadays you're a native of "German" and fluent in (contemporary) Low Saxon/East low German. But like I said, it would be great to find persons who are "bilingual", but it's becoming more dificult every day as it is the older generation that is "most fluent".Every new generation High German strengthens its grip ever more tight and I fear Low Saxon/East low German is already in a position in which it cannot escape anymore. >>What I meant is that your arguments were just like those who argue that West Frisian is practically just a dialect of Dutch on the basis of things such as crossintelligibility and general lexical distance, and who reject the notion of separateness on genetic grounds alone.<< Well Frisian is a whole other case, the Dutch government (in dark contrast with the German and Danish governments) activily supports the Frisian language.Its an obliged language taught at every school in Frisia.And plans are made to "Frisify" Dutch terms and even erase the ones from the lexicon that have Frisian variants already. Now if the local government of, let's say Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen ) and North Rhine-Westphalia (Nordrhein-Westfalen) would do the same things to protect the Low Saxon/East low German language .... instead they invest in (Believe it or not) to teach a whole different Low German language, not even native to the area, ... Dutch.
>>There is no point in denying that Low Saxon, or low German dialects as a whole are disappearing in Germany.<<
I do not deny such at all, but I do object to the idea that anything referred to as such today is really just a Low Saxon-ized or East Low German-ized dialect of High German; such things do most definitely exist, but they are distinct from Low Saxon and East Low German proper. Even if you dig up the Plautdietsch used by some Mennonites in North America, it still counts as East Low German proper, for instance. >>Now if the local government of, let's say Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen ) and North Rhine-Westphalia (Nordrhein-Westfalen) would do the same things to protect the Low Saxon/East low German language .... instead they invest in (Believe it or not) to teach a whole different Low German language, not even native to the area, ... Dutch.<< This is exactly the kind of thing that I would be for. Unfortunately, the social situation in Germany today is such that it makes it quite hard to implement such.
Kindly note the use of the word "DARK" below.
Ergo, for "jav" the efforts of the government of queen Beatrix to preserve Frisian is "dark". One must therefore conclude that for the said "jav" the cases of Germany et al. squashing the rights of Frisians are a "bright" example. Absolutewly despicable... >> >> Jav Wed May 17, 2006 11:47 am GMT >> [...] Well Frisian is a whole other case, the Dutch government >> (in dark contrast with the German and Danish governments) >> activily supports the Frisian language.Its an obliged language >> taught at every school in Frisia.And plans are made to "Frisify" >> Dutch terms and even erase the ones from the lexicon that >> have Frisian variants already. [...] >>
Your post is so unclear to me I have no idea what (rubbish) you posted.
Are there any Frisian speakers in Denmark at all? On the island Rømø, perhaps?
I listened to the audio and I found that I could understand the man pretty well but had a great amount of diffeculty with the lady.
I know how to speak Afrikaans thus I should have been able to understand her but she sounded, to me at least, as if she was speaking a scandanavian language. I saw a movie some time back were the people spoke a very easy German it was set in a cassical period. The Germain I heard was similar to that spoken by the man. For a Afrikaans speaker at least it was very easy with only a hand full of words that can´t be derived or understood. Is this some sort of German dilect?
Oh my Gawd, this language is so much softer than High German, it sounds like Flemish Dutch, very very nice/warm.
Joey:
The woman spoke Low German (Plattdeutsch), while the man spoke High German, I recall. Strange that you didn't understand the woman better, considering you speak Afrikaans. |