Recently, I get curious about mutual intelligibility of Brazilian portuguese and Spanish (both Latin American and European one). I read that European portuguese is for the most part unintelligible for spanish speakers, due to extensive shortening of vowels, so the comprehensibility is maybe around 15-20% but as for the Brazilian portuguese what I read it seems to me that spanish speakers understand usually big deal of it maybe around 40-50% and more and the conversation in "portunhol" (improvised mix of portuguese with spanish) is even easier, like 70-80% of mutual intelligibility. However, since there are many native speakers of these languages I would like to know their opinions on this subject. I have a portuguese textbook (but I haven´t started yet) and in the future I would like to add also some spanish to my linguistic knowledge since my father is a native speaker of portuguese (+ crioulo) and I like both Spanish (Hispanic) and Brazilian culture. Unfortunately, I don´t know personally any Brazilian, however I listen to plenty of Brazilian music, and my impression is that it is (mostly) quite nice sounding and - relatively - clear language, despite some features in pronunciation which makes the comprehension a little more complicated (pronunciation of R in some positions like H, ti and di pronunciated like tchi, dji), but if you get used to it, it´s not so hard. It sounds like a mix of Spanish, Italian, occasional French and even African elements (phlegmatic and relaxed rhytm of the speech). Later, I would like to post here some links of a few Brazilian songs as examples of Standard Brazilian portuguese. Unfortunately, I had also chance to hear European portuguese since supplemental cassettes to my portuguese textbook are spoken mostly by European speakers and I was surprised how ugly this language is! It doesn´t sound like Romance language at all, rather like a mix of Russian (especially annoying sh sh sh sound, hard l, rhytmus) combined with already mentioned shortening of vowels which is typical rather for Afro-asiatic languages as Arabic and Berber. European portuguese sounds like Eastern Slavic language close to Russian or Polish and Brazilian portuguese Romance-African. This is my general impression.
Brazilian portuguese and spanish
Are you Spanish speaker or understand Spanish or Portuguese fluently? This topic is intended for them. The issue is clear: how understandable is Brazilian Portuguese for Spanish speakers?
The 'Sh " sound u refer to its also present in some parts of Brazil.
Like in Brazil, there are also some different accents in Portugal. And u sound like there is a big difference between both European and Brazilian Portuguese variety, but there is not a huge difference in both varieties, When a Brazilian comes to Portugal for the first time he might get kinda confused with the sounds of european portuguese but after a while it gets easier to catch it. Im brazilian living in Portugal and never had trouble understand the european Portuguese
Like in Brazil, there are also some different accents in Portugal. And u sound like there is a big difference between both European and Brazilian Portuguese variety, but there is not a huge difference in both varieties, When a Brazilian comes to Portugal for the first time he might get kinda confused with the sounds of european portuguese but after a while it gets easier to catch it. Im brazilian living in Portugal and never had trouble understand the european Portuguese
But out of all the romance languages I think Portuguese has a greater level of dialectalization. Andre, do you live towards a city center or metropolitan area? That usually a determinant on the variety you are hearing in Portugal. What they speak in Oporto or Lisboa is standardized and is also what you hear in popular language, music and television. If you go to regions in the Algarve area or visit Madeira or the acores you will experience a greater level of dificulty in their accents. My mother speaks Br. Portuguese specifically the variety spoken in Santa Catarina and she went to those regions I mentioned and hardly couldn't understand anything they were saying but can perfectly understand standard popular varieties of Eu. Portuguese. Ayazid, if you go to the Camoes institute web sites you can hear some of the many different varieties spoken throughout the world and judge for yourself on the differences. I personally think the most beautiful variety of Portuguese is the Cape Verdean variety and I grew up listening to my Brazilian relatives speak! If you listen to the smooth sounds of Cesaria Evora you can listen to how beautiful that dialect is.
Brazilian portuguese Romance-African.
Did u knew that European Portuguese its also spoken in such parts of Africa , like Angola, cape verde, Mozambique????
Yes, but I never heard of a Brazilian portuguese Romance-African, I am asking what it is. If someone could explain. thnx
Did u knew that European Portuguese its also spoken in such parts of Africa , like Angola, cape verde, Mozambique????
Yes, but I never heard of a Brazilian portuguese Romance-African, I am asking what it is. If someone could explain. thnx
"Andre, do you live towards a city center or metropolitan area?"
Hey, JGrego, yeah, i live in the city of Lisbon for more or less 5 years now. and i do know Algarve, Madeira and Azores accents are very difficult to understand as a Brazilian, lolololol, but truthful my portuguese friends also say the same, so its a general thing, hehehehe.
When i arrived the first time to Lisbon, it sounded funny to hear this weird accent and it was a little difficult to understand at the beginning as people spoke it very fast ( like the castillean spoken in Spain ), but after just a couple of days i was used to hear it and it didnt sound strange anymore. I think that the reason why Brazilians in Brazil say that its hard to understand portuguese its due to the fact that we almost have no contact at all with the language there, in Portugal there is lots of Soap operas, Brazilian artists, etc., and they understand us easily.whether Brazilian accent or Continental accent, we all speak and write Portuguese, we should be united to promote our language world-wide and not claiming superiority over one another. Lets look to the example of our spanish neighbours, its castillean whether its spoken in spain, cuba, puerto rico, argentina,etc.
Hey, JGrego, yeah, i live in the city of Lisbon for more or less 5 years now. and i do know Algarve, Madeira and Azores accents are very difficult to understand as a Brazilian, lolololol, but truthful my portuguese friends also say the same, so its a general thing, hehehehe.
When i arrived the first time to Lisbon, it sounded funny to hear this weird accent and it was a little difficult to understand at the beginning as people spoke it very fast ( like the castillean spoken in Spain ), but after just a couple of days i was used to hear it and it didnt sound strange anymore. I think that the reason why Brazilians in Brazil say that its hard to understand portuguese its due to the fact that we almost have no contact at all with the language there, in Portugal there is lots of Soap operas, Brazilian artists, etc., and they understand us easily.whether Brazilian accent or Continental accent, we all speak and write Portuguese, we should be united to promote our language world-wide and not claiming superiority over one another. Lets look to the example of our spanish neighbours, its castillean whether its spoken in spain, cuba, puerto rico, argentina,etc.
JGreco
««But out of all the romance languages I think Portuguese has a greater level of dialectalization.»»
You mean accents not dialects and it is not the one with the greater level.
All old European countries have big differences in accent and these differences will also be much bigger than the ones you will find in countries that acquired a language from a colonizer.
Guest
««When i arrived the first time to Lisbon, it sounded funny to hear this weird accent and it was a little difficult to understand at the beginning as people spoke it very fast ( like the castillean spoken in Spain ), but after just a couple of days i was used to hear it and it didnt sound strange anymore.»»
I suppose you never ever heard the accent before as everything is dubbed in Brazil. It is not like an American that can listen to British at least a few times; you are completely isolated from the Portuguese accent.
««we should be united to promote our language world-wide and not claiming superiority over one another.»»
I do not think that people that are claiming they are Brazilians in this forum, and putting up a fight with euPortuguese, are real Brazilians. At least they act very different from everybody I know from Brazil.
On the other hand what you say is pretty much what I hear from Brazilians I know. And I agree with you; claiming superiority over one another or huge differences, to me, it sounds hilarious.
««But out of all the romance languages I think Portuguese has a greater level of dialectalization.»»
You mean accents not dialects and it is not the one with the greater level.
All old European countries have big differences in accent and these differences will also be much bigger than the ones you will find in countries that acquired a language from a colonizer.
Guest
««When i arrived the first time to Lisbon, it sounded funny to hear this weird accent and it was a little difficult to understand at the beginning as people spoke it very fast ( like the castillean spoken in Spain ), but after just a couple of days i was used to hear it and it didnt sound strange anymore.»»
I suppose you never ever heard the accent before as everything is dubbed in Brazil. It is not like an American that can listen to British at least a few times; you are completely isolated from the Portuguese accent.
««we should be united to promote our language world-wide and not claiming superiority over one another.»»
I do not think that people that are claiming they are Brazilians in this forum, and putting up a fight with euPortuguese, are real Brazilians. At least they act very different from everybody I know from Brazil.
On the other hand what you say is pretty much what I hear from Brazilians I know. And I agree with you; claiming superiority over one another or huge differences, to me, it sounds hilarious.
Brazilian portuguese Romance-African.
Did u knew that European Portuguese its also spoken in such parts of Africa , like Angola, cape verde, Mozambique????
Yes, but I never heard of a Brazilian portuguese Romance-African, I am asking what it is. If someone could explain. thnx
Yes, but African Portuguese as it is spoken for example in Angola or Cabo Verde sounds different from the European one. The main difference is that the mentioned shortening of vowels is not so profound there as in Portugal.
As for the Brazilian Portuguese being Romance-African. It´s not a result of any exact observation just my personal impression and rather metaphorical characterization, nothing more.
Did u knew that European Portuguese its also spoken in such parts of Africa , like Angola, cape verde, Mozambique????
Yes, but I never heard of a Brazilian portuguese Romance-African, I am asking what it is. If someone could explain. thnx
Yes, but African Portuguese as it is spoken for example in Angola or Cabo Verde sounds different from the European one. The main difference is that the mentioned shortening of vowels is not so profound there as in Portugal.
As for the Brazilian Portuguese being Romance-African. It´s not a result of any exact observation just my personal impression and rather metaphorical characterization, nothing more.
««Yes, but African Portuguese as it is spoken for example in Angola or Cabo Verde sounds different from the European one.»»
But this is obvious. Even in Portugal each region has its own accent. The same happen with all other European languages.
««The main difference is that the mentioned shortening of vowels is not so profound there as in Portugal.»»
For instance you think that someone from Cabo Verde speaks all the vowels? And if he speaks Portuguese and Criolu, when he speaks Portuguese will he pronounce all the vowels? No way.
Criolu is spoken a lot faster than EuPortuguese and shortens even more vowels.
Here is an example, a poem in Criolu:
Criolu Caboverdiano:
Ma lì qu' m'nascê
lì qu' m' criá!
Êsse mar, êsse cêu, ma êsse tchôm,
Lì qu'm'ha morrê!
Idêa d'imbarcá
nunca passóme pâ cabéça (...)
Antes fcá pa lì tâ gozá dêsse mar
ma dêsse cêu.
[Sérgio Frusoni] .
Portuguese translation:
Mas aqui é que nasci
aqui é que me criei!
Este mar, este céu, este
[chão]
Aqui é que hei-de morrer!
Ideia de embarcar
nunca me passou pela cabeça
Antes ficar por cá a
[gozar deste mar]
e deste céu
Speaking slowly and pronouncing all the vowels in Portuguese does not look like a natural thing for someone that already speaks so fast.
So saying what is the main difference in how African Portuguese sounds compared to EuPortuguese depends of the local accent, not just the country.
But this is obvious. Even in Portugal each region has its own accent. The same happen with all other European languages.
««The main difference is that the mentioned shortening of vowels is not so profound there as in Portugal.»»
For instance you think that someone from Cabo Verde speaks all the vowels? And if he speaks Portuguese and Criolu, when he speaks Portuguese will he pronounce all the vowels? No way.
Criolu is spoken a lot faster than EuPortuguese and shortens even more vowels.
Here is an example, a poem in Criolu:
Criolu Caboverdiano:
Ma lì qu' m'nascê
lì qu' m' criá!
Êsse mar, êsse cêu, ma êsse tchôm,
Lì qu'm'ha morrê!
Idêa d'imbarcá
nunca passóme pâ cabéça (...)
Antes fcá pa lì tâ gozá dêsse mar
ma dêsse cêu.
[Sérgio Frusoni] .
Portuguese translation:
Mas aqui é que nasci
aqui é que me criei!
Este mar, este céu, este
[chão]
Aqui é que hei-de morrer!
Ideia de embarcar
nunca me passou pela cabeça
Antes ficar por cá a
[gozar deste mar]
e deste céu
Speaking slowly and pronouncing all the vowels in Portuguese does not look like a natural thing for someone that already speaks so fast.
So saying what is the main difference in how African Portuguese sounds compared to EuPortuguese depends of the local accent, not just the country.
As for the shorteing of vowels, I didn´t mean Cabo Verdian Ciroulo language, but for example Angolak Portuguese. In my Portuguese textbook is an article spoken by Angolan and he speaks considerably clearly compared to Portuguese speakers. Also the authors of the book point this fact out.
Having many angolan friends, all i can say is that there is no way that Angolan is clear when compared to Portuguese, it's almost the same. U probably don't know but even in Portugal, there are different accents. U can bash whatever u want about the fact that European Portuguese its ugly and all other portuguese varieties are better, but we do all understand each other.
Well ,then are your informations in contradiction with informations with in my textbook which clearly states that vowels are in African Portuguese (namely Angolan variant) not so much reduced as in the European Portuguese. I didn´t say that all non-European variants of Portuguese are automatically better, I meant the Brazilian one in the first place. As for your European Portuguese, maybe it´s not so ugly, it would be an exaggeration to say it so plainly, but I prefere rather Brazilian pronuciation.
well, as a portuguese i also prefer the brazilian variety as its exotic and sexier then the european one, which i admit its spoken incredibly fast many times thus making it hard to understand. But hey, the spanish spoken at spain its also spoken fast many times making it not that much understandable. When i hear the spanish spoken from South America i do understand it more clearly than the european.