The relationships between the neo-Latin languages

" No. As Greg would say, "Absolument Faux!" When I think of Latin culture and civilization, I think of southwestern Europe, and only secondly, do I think of Latin America. Hispanic-America is Latin in the sense that it is an offshoot of Latin European culture and civilization."

Yes, but due to your background (the place where you live in), your comments since a few months let clearly notice the idea that your reference of latinity was the "hispanic" stereotype. When I said "hispanic" I of course did not meant "Mexican or Hispanic-American", but the real meaning, "Hispanic" as "related to SPAIN and SPANISH language and culture".
As many people you had let in old posts the idea that the Spanish (or more precisely the image you have of Spain, which seemed to be based mainly upon the Andalucian stereotype) was, conciently or inconciently, you reference point of the "latin" thing (maybe mixed with tipically latin-american things).
I know that you changed your mind, but we had to had long and endless discussion. But I also tend to think that your "evolution" is not completly finished and you continue to think from a Hispanic point of view. From a spanislanguage-centred point of view, it could seem that french would seem "feel less latin" as you said, because in reality you inconciously though in your head that everything spanish is the most latin that one could imagine - and, compared to the Spanish (southern spanish) stereotype you have in mind France/French culture could seem less similar. The reality is if we place the center of reference of latinity in another point, it would be the spanish culture/people/language that would "feel less latin".




" So who has a "central position"? France? "

I personally don't think there should be a central position. In a family all members are part of the same family at the same level, with their common points and their differences.
If we think in an historical point of view, Italy would have a more central role (even if Italy changed. Italy and Roman empire is not the same thing).
If we place ourselves in a geographic point of view, the south of France is the "gravity center" of the "latin arch". In the formation of the concept of "latinity", France had a central role. It was also France who named the former Spanish, Portuguese and French colonies in America under the name "latin-America" in the 19th.



" Evidently you missed my post featuring several paragraphs on the idiocy of categorizing all of the people of Latin America into one racial classification called "Latino" based on the Mestizo or Hispanic look. "

I was not thinking about the "mestizo look", but the "black-haired-black-eyed-hot-blooded" stereotype (exemple of Antonio Banderas), based mainly upon the extreme south of Spain and Italy, which is inacurate in most of the rest of these countries.

"That's not exactly correct. The Italian equivalent of "vosotros" is "voi"."

Yes, and Italian "Voi" is identical with Romanian "Voi"

and Italian "vostra" is a possessive adjective used in conjunction with a feminine noun. Same as Romanian "voastra"

as well as Spanish "nosotros"
Italian- "Noi"
Romanian -"Noi"

<<As many people you had let in old posts the idea that the Spanish (or more precisely the image you have of Spain, which seemed to be based mainly upon the Andalucian stereotype) was, conciently or inconciently, you reference point of the "latin" thing (maybe mixed with tipically latin-american things). >>

Yes, and I was humble enough to admit that such a point of view was wrong.

My main error in thinking was that "Latin" is synonymous with, and inextricably linked with the mediterranean (warm climate, passionate, gregarious, vivacious people (party, show emotions, affectionate), Catholic, stereotype of Spain and southern Italy. And as far as the "latininity" of various languages, I still at the present moment, can't help but associate Latin languages with the rolled 'r's and vowel-rich languages of Italian and Spanish. I still think that southern Italy is much more like Spain than France, while Northern Italy (Milan, Venice, etc) is more like France.

And I thank you for correcting my error in thinking. Chalck it up to youthful exuberance if you wish. But, you yourself, must also correct your central point of view. You are from Nice. You live in the French riviera, literally right in the heart of the Mediterranean. You look around, and even if your not conscious of it, the people around you look mainly like mediterranean people, with higher rates of darker features. Your natural environment is reminiscent of nothing but the mediterranean. You live within close proximity to Italy, and the climate, local cuisine, and landscape are all mediterranean in nature. So, as a citizen from Nice, you can't possibly entertain the notion that France is anything but a southern European country. But to outsiders, we see France as a whole a bit differently. France's economic, political, cultural, and linguistic nucleus is Paris, and I believe Apam illustrated it beautfilly when he said something along the lines that France was positioned toward the north. France projects herself to the world through Paris. We see mainly northern France, with accents which are very nasal, and the 'r's are most definantly uvular. We see cuisine which features a lot of butter in place of the mediterranean diet of tomatos and olive oils. We see a stereotype of Frenchmen looking like brown hair, light brown eyes, and light skin. This would be the equivalent of a Galician or citizen of Asturias as being the standard for a stereotypical Spaniard. We see a culture of people who are aloof, as opposed to affectionate and passionate. So, with all of this, it is easy to see how one can come to associate France with the south less so than with Italy or Spain. France, has differences as well, and just as in Italy, where there are "two Italys", so France has its northern and southern half. You live in the extreme south, so that is your central point of reference. You have to learn to see France as most outsiders do.

Is that you LAA?

I agree with him that much of the outside's world perception of France is one city: Paris. I am unsure if France herself is to blame for this exported image, but he is quite right. French is then based upon that and to the outside, it really seems the uvular r is standard. There is the truth and there is the prevalent stereotype.

Yes, Tiffany. The above was me. I just didn't get a chance to sign it.

" But, you yourself, must also correct your central point of view. You are from Nice. You live in the French riviera, literally right in the heart of the Mediterranean "

I has been living a part of my life in Nice, but actually I live in Paris since 10 years. I've been living also in other cities suh as Montpellier (which is in the south too, but is very different from the "Cote d'azur"(Riviera)).


" You look around, and even if your not conscious of it, the people around you look mainly like mediterranean people, with higher rates of darker features. "

Actually, in Frence the people is very mixed, especially in big cities like Paris or Nice. I never noticed that the people was especially much "darker" in Nice than in Paris.



" you can't possibly entertain the notion that France is anything but a southern European country "

No, I don't think, at least geographically that northern France could be considered as southern European, while the south is clearly part of it. This was a long subject of a previous endless discussion. I personally consider the north of France to have a ambigous situation in Europe, being geographically, historically and climatically linked with northern European countries, but in the same time culturally linked with its southern part and with the other latin countries of southern Europe.




Hello Tiffany,

" I agree with him that much of the outside's world perception of France is one city: Paris. "

Which is interesting about Paris (I consider it as "my city" since long time I live here, as well as Nice) , it is that it is in the same time a concentrate of all of rest of France - the country having been very centralized - and in the same time a city very different of the "provinces" (the rest of the country). I think it could be compared (with some differences) with the relation of NYC and the rest of the US (in the provinces there are often a sort of love-hate relation with Paris).
But I don't think either that Paris could resume itself the whole country, aswell as it hasno't all the characteristics of the other cities of northern France, (except the climate and localisation).
The same way Milano has attracted peoples from other Italian regions, Paris population is very cosmopolitan and not necessary tipical of northern France. For me, the true northern France regions are Normandy, Nord-pas-de-Calais or Alsace - when I go there I have a feeling of been abroad.
On the other way the big southern cities have also recieved populations from the north of france, aswell as huge amounts of north-African french people who were rappatriated after the independance of Algeria.

<<I personally consider the north of France to have a ambigous situation in Europe, being geographically, historically and climatically linked with northern European countries, but in the same time culturally linked with its southern part and with the other latin countries of southern Europe.>>

And as so many outsiders see France through the lense of Paris, and northern France, this is exactly why some come to identify France with northern Europe. Even, as a young student in public school (government sponsored) our history and social science textbooks describe France as a northern European country. This is not an exact quote, but our books said something like this:
"During this time period, Spanish and Portuguese power and influence began to dissipate, as did the formerly rich and influential Italian city-states, who at one point, possessed a monopoly over trade with the orient. Now, northern European countries like England, France, and the Netherlands began to take a leading role in European affairs, and became the dominant forces in colonial empire building around the globe."

Romanian si Alexandru, puteti sa va comportati civilizat? Sau injuraturile sunt singurele argumente cu care puteti veni? Nu va dati in petec, va rog! INcercati sa cititi corect ca baiatul ala a zis tocmai contrariul; ca nu sintem tigani si ca numele vine de la orasul Roma... va repeziti cu capul inainte, ce naiba va infierbantati asa repede?

Tu nu ai vazut ca primu' guest a spus ca romanii sunt slavi si tigani,iar apoi a venit un alt guest care i-a spus ca "romanii sunt o referinta la romani la Roma" nu la tigani...
Sau ce tu crezi ca intr-un articol spune ca suntem tigani si in altu' romani?
Noi de primu ne-am luat ca al doilea era altcinevva

I agree that written portuguese and spanish are closest to one another and same thing for spoken italian and spanish.

But one thing that I noticed that "My friend" is "Il mio amico" and "O meu amigo" in italian and portuguese and "Mi amigo" in spanish. "The boy loves the girl" is "Il poeta ama la ragazza" and "O poeta ama a menina" in italian and portuguese and "El poeta ama a la niña" in spanish. Notice the similarity between italian and portuguese in this case.

The syntaxes or word order of italian and portuguese are more similar to each other than to spanish. Check the multi-lingual manual of your newly bought product.

There is a verb in italian which is "supporre" is "supor" in portuguese. Obviously spanish does not have an equivalent of that verb because all unconjugated verbs end only in either "ar"/"er"/"ir".

I conclude that protuguese is closest to french when it comes to phonolgy, to spanish in vocabualry, and to italian in syntax or word order.

I read all messages. The idea that the French language contains very little Teutonic words from the Franks who spoke Frankish is totally false.
The Frankish warlords and aristocracy ruled Gaul for over five hundred years and introduced many hundreds of Frankish words related to social customs, colors, military affairs, justice and technical items. The words in French like guerre, garantie, gardien are related to modern English war, warranty/guarentee, warden/guardian. The colors bleu, gris, brun, blond are identical or similar to blue, grey/gray, brown, blond. The highest military rank marechal is similar to the Anglo-Saxon English word marshal.
Words like jardin, hache, hameau, canif come from Frankish and are very similar to garden, axe, hamlet, (pocket)knife. Even the geographical directions nord, sud, est, ouest (North, South, East West) come from Old English. The Teutonic Frankish, Saxon and Viking (Old Danish) left a huge impact on the French language.
Although, the bulk of the French language is Latin-based at 77%, a noticeable 22% of its lexicon is Teutonic (mostly Teutonic Frankish).
The Gothic impact on Spanish, Portuguese and Italian was far less, ranging from 1% to 3% at the most.

About the same percentage in Romanian: 60% or a bit more, Latin, 30% Slavic, 10% other, at the core vocabulary level. But as many neologisms make their way into its core vocabulary, its Romance character it's likely to increase.

For a more precise information, the officialy recognised structure of Romanian vocabulary is as follows:

Romance 71.66%
30.33% authentic Latin words
22.12% French words
15.26% scientific Latin words
3.95% Italian words

Slavic 14.17%
9.18% Old Slavonic
2.6% Bulgarian
1.12% Russian

Uknown 2.71%
German 2.47%
Greek 1.12%
Pre-Latin words 1%
Magyar 1.4%

< 1%: English, Turkish, Polish, Ucrainian and others

Some percentages are uncertain because of the fact that many words origins are under debate.

Regards

Who says that romanian is so removed from latin.

Well, grammatically romanian is the closest to latin even in phonology much closer than sardinian to latin. Although in vocabulary it might be the farthest.

Show a romanian text to somebody who has a little knowledge about romance languages and the first impression that he/she might have is the text is written in latin.