Does France deserve its name?

Wanted to add this link, which I think is an intelligent papaer on this issue:

"The Myth of Continents or How our Grade-School Teachers Got it Wrong"
http://homepage.smc.edu/morris_pete/papers/main/continents.html

Ciao Tiffany,

Grazie per l'articolo. Gli ho dato una occhiata e mi è sembrato molto interessante. Lo leggerò più tardi.

Okay. In English then, do not take offense when I refer to Americans from the U.S. as Americans. And in Spanish, I will respect your view. Fair deal?

Hi LAA,

Not fair enough, because: saying American to the US citizens you are excluding the rest of the inhabitants of both continents (:-)) North and South America. (I am doing my part, you can't complain, huh?)

But me speaking of two continents in English don't exclude anyone of anything... y al tú hablar de un solo continente americano en español, tampoco excluyes a nadie.

But it was a nice tride, you are perseverant... :-)

But as you said, you must respect differences between the two languages. In English, "American" almost exclusively refers to citizens of the U.S. In fact, there is no other word for citizens of the U.S. in English. Also, in English, when you refer to people of the Americas, outside of the U.S., they are Latin Americans, not "Americans". So, you must respect that view as well, as this is a permenant feature of English.

Sergio, I understand your point of view, but my apologies, a name historically given to us will not change anytime soon. I've always stood my ground firmly - I don't care what word is used in any langauge as long as it is not discriminatory.

I will continue to call myself an American. I say this because this is how I was brought up. There is no malice in this. You may call yourself "americano" in Spanish. I'll call myself "estadounidense" in Spanish (though I learned "americana" from my Spanish teacher - who was Cuban).

This is similar to the "Anglo-Saxon" debate. English-speakers cannot understand the use of it and think there might be prejudice involved. However, I am fine with "anglosajones" because I think there is no malice in that either.

Bottom line: Spanish is Spanish, English is English. Each side has historic usage of some terms that the other side may see as inappropriate in context. We can debate it all you want (and we have), but debating it will change nothing.

LAA,

I still don't agree with it, but let us have a deal. I will never touch this subject again. Let's make this compromise.

Tiffany,

Siccome ho detto LAA, sono d'accordo con questa discuzione, e prenderò da oggi questa parola "American" come riferimento agli abitanti degli USA, anche se non mi piace mica. Ma non perdere più di tempo con queste bagatelle (anche da mia parte). Questo è un foro sulle lingue ed è molto più interessante parlarne più che non cadere sempre fuori dal tema. Mi sto includendo anch'io.

Lo vedi? sto dimenticando il mio italiano!!!!

Sergio,
Penso che il tuo italiano sia buono, ma italiano non è la mia madrelingua. Ho tanto rispetto per la decisione di abbandonare questo argomento. Questo argomento non finisce mai e spesso conclude solo in risentimento. Bravo Sergio.

Ho un commento e una domanda.
1. In italiano, mi sembra che la parola "forum" sia più usato della parola "foro"
2. Che cosa vuoi dire con "bagatelle"?

Tiffany and Sergio,

You both know I absolutely love Italian. I've taught myself an intermediate-high level of Spanish from Pimsleur, and exposure to certain family members. My Spanish still needs lots of work before I am satisfied to say that I am near fluent. But, some day, I would like to learn Italian.

My question is this. Was it incredibly easy for you guys to learn Italian after already speaking Spanish? And, how practical have you found it to be, outside of Italy? I don't see much practical use for Italian here in the U.S. I am conflicted. I know that for business, or international travel, French would be much more useful. But I have a special love for Italian.

Arghh! you were talking about this and didn't call me ! God! :-)

I'm sure that if I say one more word the whole thread would be deleted...sad..sad..sad.... :(

Nix the "incredibly easy" part. My level of Spanish was not that high when I started Italian, but I was probably similar to your level, LAA. However, I would not say it was hard either and I have always delighted in learning languages, so it did not feel like a burden to me. On the contrary, it was and still is a pleasure.

I have learned out of necessity. With in-laws who do not speak English well, I must speak Italian. I have said this many times, but I'll say it again: In order for me to learn Italian well, I had to forget the similarities I saw with Spanish, and focus instead on the key differences. Thinking everything is the same can get you into trouble. Let your knowledge of Spanish be a guide, not the manual.

That said, I see no reason that you cannot pick up Italian and learn French too, if you so desire. You will likely learn quickly. Many people comment on how quickly I have picked up Italian, but I do not know if this is due to my motivation (a lot, I married into it!), my love and aptitude for languages (not to brag, but I've been told this my whole life), or my prior experience with Spanish.

Personally, I think it all contributed, and I think you probably have all these things too. In bocca al lupo!

FIVE continents, huh? I had no idea you conceptualize the world that way, Serge -- like Tiffany and LAA, I was brought up with seven.

How fascinating!

Kind of explains a lot of the cross-cultural friction about the name "America" -- we're dividing up the world differently, and it's actually a conceptual "false friend".

It's interesting that when people of different cultures and languages converse, even when we are using a common language to communicate, we often don't fully realize how different our paradigms can be. I've come across this time and time again in talking to people from other countries and cultures -- we're using a common language, speaking the same words, and all the time we have no idea of the huge differences in what we MEAN by them. We think we're having the same conversation, but we're really talking apples and oranges, and it leads to all kinds of frustrations and false assumptions.

For instance, when LAA sees "America del Sur" on a map, he automatically assumes that since it translates more or less as "South America" (as we would call it in English), it is being used the same way -- as a distinct name for a separate continent -- which is how we would see it. But if I understand Sergio's explanation correctly, "America del Sur" is more analogous to the way an English-speaker would think of Southern Europe -- just as the lower part of a larger continent.

So when you just translate words or names straight, using the dictionary definition, you might be unknowingly missing a lot of subtleties.

(I'm not singling you out, LAA -- I've always made the same assumption, that South America is a separate continent in everyone's mind!)

I wonder if part of the problem is -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- that Spanish doesn't make much distinction between "South" and "southern" the way English often does -- that using "South" in a name often denotes a sense of separateness -- South Dakota and South Carolina are as separate from North Dakota and North Caroline as Tennessee is from Kentucky, regardless of the similarity of their names -- while using "SouthERN" often implies that the area so named is simply PART of a larger whole -- as in southern Alabama or western China.*



* Of course, since this is English we're talking about, exceptions abound ;) -- West Texas is still just part of Texas (and nobody ever says "western Texas"), and Northern Ireland is a separate political entity from Ireland.

"England was named after the Angles, China was named after the chinese, Japan was named after the Japanese, Turkey was named after the Turks." Argentina is named after the Argentines........NOT!!! Argentina is named after the Latin word "argent" meaning "silver". That's because the European conquistadores found vast amounts of silver in "Argentina". Argentina wasn't named after a people was it?

>1. In italiano, mi sembra che la parola "forum" sia più usato della parola "foro"
Si, grazie. Dovevo avverlo immaginato, datoché in italiano pratticamente tutte le parole finiscono in vocale. Nello spagnolo si dice anche "foro".

>2. Che cosa vuoi dire con "bagatelle"?
avrei giurato di avere letto questa parola anche in italiano. La parola di origine francese "Bagatelle", in singolare sgnifica schiocchezza in italiano. Nello spagnolo si dice bagatela....