Southern European arrogance???

After much thought, I have come to this conclusion about southern Europeans, or people of Romance speaking nations of Europe, IN GENERAL. If you only know and speak to them in English, (even when they understand English) they hold their nose high at you (figure of speech). But if you speak to them in Spanish, they suddenly come down to your level, and seem to respect you more. Do not tell me otherwise, because this is what I have experienced nearly everyday for the last month and a half.

Is this some sort of "civilized Roman vs. Barbarian" mentality? Or "Latin superiority complex"?

This has not been my experience in Italy. No one has ever looked down on me because I speak English. In fact, most seem to find it interesting and want to know what it is like where I live and then want to practice with me. I've only met one person who had no desire to know English because she thought it sounded ugly, but had nothing against English-speakers. I met a few others who hated Bush, but not the English language. In fact, one of them used English to tell me this.

You are too general in your analysis. While I believe some Latin people indeed have some sort of superiority complex, you can't apply this to all of them - or even most - in my experience (however limited to Italy it may be). There are good and bad people everywhere. Just like other cultures and places have people with superiority complexes too.

By the way, why did you even start a topic on a public forum if you "don't want people to tell you otherwise". I hope you weren't expecting only people that agreed with you to post. It's public - and open to debate.

LAA,
I understand the rejecting to speak English among Romance languages speakers (not generalizing, of course) but the cause is very simple, after what I have gathered among them: laziness. The first opportunity they have, they will switch back to their mother tongue. Among Germanic speaking people is not so. But I think they are just more interested in speaking English, not less arrogant. It doesn't have anything to do with arrogance.

Tiffany, you just explained it perfectly.

I meant to convey that I didn't wish people to tell me that that was not what I, personally, experienced. I don't believe any one nation of people is naturally nicer or kinder than another. This would be completely false.

But I have noticed that about 70% of Latin tourists here are very rude toward you if they think you only speak English. If I talk to them in Spanish, they are much more receptive toward initiating a conversation. The look on their faces change from one of condescending judgement, to hospitable humility.

Most northern European tourists here speak very good English as it is. I've learned to recognize a southern European immediately, even if they have blonde hair and blue eyes. Their facial features are very different. I make a guess, as to whether they're Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. I'll ask them Capice inglesi?, or Habla castellano? If they are obviously Dutch or German or some other type of Northern European, I ask them, "Sprechen Sie Englisch? The answer is almost always yes for the northerners, but southerners speak very little English usually. Many I have encountered however, do. And even if they do speak English, they respond completely differently to you when you speak Spanish.

The French don't understand Spanish or English at all. They don't even seem to understand basic phrases in Italian. And I'm only referring to the ones I encounter here, when they are on vacation. I met a family from north eastern England, right on the Scottish border. They spoke with an almost unintelligable Scottish brouge, and they were English! They also used many words which were unfamliar to me as an American. They remarked as most Europeans do, about how fat so many Americans were. But they also mentioned how few people had "ginger" hair here. It took me a couple of seconds to realize what they were saying. They meant "red" hair.

But I'm telling you, just from what I have experienced. Most of the time, the Latins I encounter, even if they speak English, are much more receptive to you when you speak a Latin language to them. If you speak Spanish to a French tourist here, they contort their faces and act like you're speaking martian, even more so than when you speak in English. Likewise, Northern Europeans seem to view Spanish as a totally alien language, but they all know at least a little of other Germanic languages.

If you go to THEIR country, then it would be polite and respectful to at least learn their language.

On the other hand, if they come to your country, then they should do the same :)

Well, I will say I have never initiated a conversation in English with an Italian if I didn't know they spoke English beforehand. I feel that is very rude. If I go to a hotel in Italy, I always speak Italian. This usually stops when they see my passport and switch to English, while giving me brochures about the hotel in English, but I would always make the effort and never expect them to speak English.

And yes, I have heard the horror stories of English-speakers going to foreign countries where English is not the native language and they still expect to be spoken to in English. I cannot stand this, but then I have never met any traveller who did not at least try to speak the native language.

Where do you work LAA? In the US? This is the impression I got. If I went to another country, I'd expect that people would talk to me in their native language. Is it not a bit rude of your Latin guests to act snobbish when they are spoken to in English if they came to the US? Surely they must have realized that English is the dominant language here.

Jinx, Nightingale. We basically said the same thing :)

That's my point exactly. I'm here in California, USA, and THEY are the aliens in MY country. Yet, they still act all snobbish toward me if I speak in English, as if I'm an uncivilized, fat, NRA card carrying, savage, American or something. They wrinkle their nose at me, and look at each other. If they're Italian or Portuguese or Spanish, etc., and I speak to them in Spanish, their attitude totally changes, like I'm flipping on a switch! That's why I wonder if they have some sort of disdain for Anglo and northern European cultures and peoples.

LAA,

That's my point exactly. I'm here in California, USA, and THEY are the aliens in MY country. Yet, they still act all snobbish toward me if I speak in English, as if I'm an uncivilized, fat, NRA card carrying, savage, American or something. They wrinkle their nose at me, and look at each other. If they're Italian or Portuguese or Spanish, etc., and I speak to them in Spanish, their attitude totally changes, like I'm flipping on a switch! That's why I wonder if they have some sort of disdain for Anglo and northern European cultures and peoples.


I'm going out on a limb here. But, I'd suppose they act in that ill-manner because, you look Spanish and don't desire to speak Spanish towards them. Also, if 'you' know they're Spanish/Italian/Portuguese or whatever why are you lessening yourself to speaking English to them. They're foreigners yes...they're here to visit...yes...embrace your heritage..:)

««They wrinkle their nose at me, and look at each other. If they're Italian or Portuguese or Spanish, etc., and I speak to them in Spanish, their attitude totally changes, like I'm flipping on a switch! That's why I wonder if they have some sort of disdain for Anglo and northern European cultures and peoples.»»

They are tourists, if they wrinkle their nose when you speak in English maybe you speak too fast or they are not used to your accent. You have to learn gesture language or other visual cues to understand what they mean (but don't forget that nodding "yes" means "no" in some countries, the ok sign is rude in other as well as thumb up to itch hike etc) ..... That is the typical expression of someone who did not understand a thing you said and not necessarily because they do not speak English.

I never heard of disdain for other northern cultures, (if you want to call American culture northern which I think it is too mixed to be called that way) and I mean culture not politics.

««But if you speak to them in Spanish, they suddenly come down to your level, and seem to respect you more.»»

An American that speaks languages when the great majority doesn't ...yes, they will look at you in a different way.

An American that speaks languages when the great majority doesn't ...yes, they will look at you in a different way


Oh, so true.

LAA : « After much thought (...) ».
C'est sans doute ***ÇA*** le plus drôle — ou le plus grave ? — dans toute ta prose.


LAA : « If you only know and speak to them in English, (even when they understand English) they hold their nose high at you (figure of speech). But if you speak to them in Spanish, they suddenly come down to your level, and seem to respect you more. »
Il ne t'es jamais venu à l'esprit que tu commettais un ***JUGEMENT DE VALEUR*** ? Ta propre perception — réelle ou phantasmée... — ne saurait se substituer aux faits bruts : l'ouverture à autrui peut parfois être conditionnée par la distance (factuelle ou supposée) et la capacité du sujet à la surmonter.


LAA : « Is this some sort of "civilized Roman vs. Barbarian" mentality? Or "Latin superiority complex"? »
Je pense que — en ce qui ***TE*** concerne — tu viens toi-même de forunir la réponse à la fausse question que tu te posais. Tu monologues.


LAA, florilège :
1/ « I have noticed that about ***70%*** of Latin tourists here are very rude toward you ***if they think*** you only speak English (...) »
2/ « I've ***learned*** to recognize a southern European ***immediately*** (...) »
3/ « ***The French*** don't understand Spanish or English ***at all***. »
4/ « I'm here in California, USA, and THEY are the ***aliens*** in ***MY*** country. Yet, they still act ***all snobbish*** toward me if I speak in English, as if I'm an ***uncivilized, fat, NRA card carrying***, savage, American or something. »
Question : comment veux-tu qu'on te prenne au sérieux ?

LAA, your story about the Geordies (North-East English) made me laugh. "Ginger hair" sounds so much better than "red hair" and it better captures the colour itself - after all, we don't call blonde hair "yellow".

Anyway, yeah, Romantic speakers tend to be far less accomodating. Even when I was in Germany, which as an Englishman is quite a strange experience, considering our stereotypes, I even had huge skinheads walking their pitbulls in the streets say Guten Morgen to me and try and learn a few words of English off of me.

I think there was something about resistance movements in the Second World War which is supposed to show the differences between Latin and Germanic nations: the Germanic ones were more fierce in their actions and the general population more willing to fight against the Nazis, whereas the likes of Vichy France saw people far more willing to grass their neighbours up for their own short-term benefit. Although I think to an extent that ties in with religion as well: the Germanic ones are the Protestant ones, and value liberty more.

<<"Ginger hair" sounds so much better than "red hair" and it better captures the colour itself - after all, we don't call blonde hair "yellow". >>

I'm going to have to respectfully beg to differ. Ever seen real ginger? It's ... tan, Beige, even. Not even a hint of orangeness to it -- orange being the "true" color of "red" hair. So I've never understood how British people could look at a light brown piece of aromatic root and equate it with orange hair!

By the way, speaking of "yellow" hair, one of the descriptive terms that always makes me giggle is "dishwater blond" for the duller, darker shades of blond.

Uriel, "dishwater blonde" is probably a good description, actually. Pretty accurate. But yeah, it's ginger! The bright orange hair which is closer to blonde than brown. That's real ginge. Also it's the word generations of English schoolchildren have been bullied with (be it the standard "ginger" or pronounced with a hard G at the start and then with the n and g coming together as in -ing). Red hair is browner. Doesn't really have too much to do with the herb, but still, it's a great word.