Do ''trap'' and ''bath'' have a different vowel for you? I pronounce them
/tr{p/ and /be@T/. ''bath'' has a tense vowel for me. I'm from New York.
/tr{p/ and /be@T/. ''bath'' has a tense vowel for me. I'm from New York.
The vowels in ''trap'' and ''bath''.
I have the same vowel for them. I have either /{/ or /a/ for both of those. Your dialect displays the tense-lax split for /{/.
--As Tom K. mentions on his site (here's the page: http://students.csci.unt.edu/~kun/)---
"Next there are split systems. Unlike the last two, these systems are true splits, because the native speakers are aware of the two vowels and perceive them as two separate vowels. These predominate in NYC, New Jersey and the Mid-Atlantic. Similar systems have sprung up in Cincinatti and New Orleans, although Cincinatti is switching to the nasal system. Describing them in detail would take up too much space, so I'll just lay out some general features. Usually /æ/ becomes tense before (here we go again) voiceless fricatives (s, f, sh, th). It's also usually tense before nasals (m and n but NOT ng) but, unlike the last two systems, not in open syllables (syllables without any consonants after the vowel). This means that after, bath, man, and pass are tense while bat, planet, Spanish, and trap are lax."
So he specifically even mentions "trap" and "bath." This description would seem to apply to your speech.
--As Tom K. mentions on his site (here's the page: http://students.csci.unt.edu/~kun/)---
"Next there are split systems. Unlike the last two, these systems are true splits, because the native speakers are aware of the two vowels and perceive them as two separate vowels. These predominate in NYC, New Jersey and the Mid-Atlantic. Similar systems have sprung up in Cincinatti and New Orleans, although Cincinatti is switching to the nasal system. Describing them in detail would take up too much space, so I'll just lay out some general features. Usually /æ/ becomes tense before (here we go again) voiceless fricatives (s, f, sh, th). It's also usually tense before nasals (m and n but NOT ng) but, unlike the last two systems, not in open syllables (syllables without any consonants after the vowel). This means that after, bath, man, and pass are tense while bat, planet, Spanish, and trap are lax."
So he specifically even mentions "trap" and "bath." This description would seem to apply to your speech.
<<No, they both have the same vowel for me: [{].>>
You must not be a New Yorker then, right?
You must not be a New Yorker then, right?
<<--As Tom K. mentions on his site (here's the page: http://students.csci.unt.edu/~kun/)---
"Next there are split systems. Unlike the last two, these systems are true splits, because the native speakers are aware of the two vowels and perceive them as two separate vowels. These predominate in NYC, New Jersey and the Mid-Atlantic. Similar systems have sprung up in Cincinatti and New Orleans, although Cincinatti is switching to the nasal system. Describing them in detail would take up too much space, so I'll just lay out some general features. Usually /æ/ becomes tense before (here we go again) voiceless fricatives (s, f, sh, th). It's also usually tense before nasals (m and n but NOT ng) but, unlike the last two systems, not in open syllables (syllables without any consonants after the vowel). This means that after, bath, man, and pass are tense while bat, planet, Spanish, and trap are lax."
So he specifically even mentions "trap" and "bath.">>
That's an interesting split, isn't it, Kirk? I don't have it. I'm from California.
"Next there are split systems. Unlike the last two, these systems are true splits, because the native speakers are aware of the two vowels and perceive them as two separate vowels. These predominate in NYC, New Jersey and the Mid-Atlantic. Similar systems have sprung up in Cincinatti and New Orleans, although Cincinatti is switching to the nasal system. Describing them in detail would take up too much space, so I'll just lay out some general features. Usually /æ/ becomes tense before (here we go again) voiceless fricatives (s, f, sh, th). It's also usually tense before nasals (m and n but NOT ng) but, unlike the last two systems, not in open syllables (syllables without any consonants after the vowel). This means that after, bath, man, and pass are tense while bat, planet, Spanish, and trap are lax."
So he specifically even mentions "trap" and "bath.">>
That's an interesting split, isn't it, Kirk? I don't have it. I'm from California.
<<That's an interesting split, isn't it, Kirk? I don't have it. I'm from California.>>
As am I :) And, yes, it is interesting. I hadn't been aware of it until I started learning about different North American dialects.
As am I :) And, yes, it is interesting. I hadn't been aware of it until I started learning about different North American dialects.
I have a nasal-a system. That is, I have [e@] before ''n'' and ''m'', as in ''slam'', ''pan'', ''plant'' and ''planet'' and [{] elsewhere. For me, the sound [{] never occurs before [m] or [n], but is raised to [e@].
slam - /sle@m/
pan - /pe@n/
plant - /ple@nt/
planet - /ple@nIt/
jam - /dZe@m/
graham - /gre@m/
can - /ke@n/
pan - /pe@n/
plant - /ple@nt/
planet - /ple@nIt/
jam - /dZe@m/
graham - /gre@m/
can - /ke@n/
<<I have a nasal-a system. That is, I have [e@] before ''n'' and ''m'', as in ''slam'', ''pan'', ''plant'' and ''planet'' and [{] elsewhere. For me, the sound [{] never occurs before [m] or [n], but is raised to [e@].>>
That's interesting. I don't have that but interestingly, /{/ before /n/ and /m/ stays at /{/ for me, while in the California Vowel Shift /{/ normally goes down to /a/ (or approaches it). Apparently as part of the CVS /{/ before /n/ and /m/ can raise to /e@/ or something like it, but in my experience that's relatively few speakers (and it doesn't include me), but it is interesting that the presence of /n/ and /m/ does at least block the lowering of /{/ to /a/ for me. So for me:
"slam" /sl{m/ but not */slam/
"pan" /p{n/ but not * /pan/
"slat" /sl{t/ or /slat/
"pat" /p{t/ or /pat/
That's interesting. I don't have that but interestingly, /{/ before /n/ and /m/ stays at /{/ for me, while in the California Vowel Shift /{/ normally goes down to /a/ (or approaches it). Apparently as part of the CVS /{/ before /n/ and /m/ can raise to /e@/ or something like it, but in my experience that's relatively few speakers (and it doesn't include me), but it is interesting that the presence of /n/ and /m/ does at least block the lowering of /{/ to /a/ for me. So for me:
"slam" /sl{m/ but not */slam/
"pan" /p{n/ but not * /pan/
"slat" /sl{t/ or /slat/
"pat" /p{t/ or /pat/
I just thought about it a little more and it appears that /n/ and /m/ also block the lowering of the other front vowels which are normally affected by the CVS. For instance, "timber" stays at [I] instead of lowering to [E], and "ember" stays at [E] instead of lowering to [{]. Compare to "bitter" which approaches [bE4@`] and "better," [b{4@`], under the CVS. This is interesting as I hadn't consciously realized that /n/ and /m/ blocked the front vowels' lowering in the CVS before. It doesn't appear to affect the back vowel [A] --> [O], tho, as [mOm] for "mom" is a common pronunciation in CVS-influenced speech.
I don't have the nasal short-a system myself, but it is a feature of the traditional Boston accent. For instance, Manny Ramirez' first name would be pronounced [mE@ni]. ;-)
For me, ''clamp'' and ''class'' are pronounced similarly to how they are pronounced in this recording:
http://www.geocities.com/jordanekay/MAEclampclass.wav
clamp - /kle@mp/
class - /kle@s/
http://www.geocities.com/jordanekay/MAEclampclass.wav
clamp - /kle@mp/
class - /kle@s/
<<clamp - /kle@mp/
class - /kle@s/>>
Typo.
clamp - /kle@mp/
class - /kl{s/
class - /kle@s/>>
Typo.
clamp - /kle@mp/
class - /kl{s/
http://www.geocities.com/jordanekay/MAEclampclass.wav
His pronunciation of clamp sounds like /klE@mp/. Switch /e/ with /E/.
His pronunciation of clamp sounds like /klE@mp/. Switch /e/ with /E/.