'W' in the Germanic languages

If 'W' was originally pronounced in all the Germanic languages the same as it is in English, then why has it become more like a 'V' sound in the other Germanic languages. Did they all undergo the same sound shift? Could it be possible that the English pronunciation of W changed instead?

I'm just curious.

The English pronunciation is very ancient, going all the way back to Indo-European (approximately 2000 BC). I've read somewhere that English is the sole Indo-European daughter language that preserved the original pronunciation of IE "w", at least in the standard language.

I'm not sure why, but w > v is a common sound change--I've never heard of it going the other direction, but I suppose it could. It occurred in most of the Germanic and in all the Romance languages. In some IE languages, such as Greek, the "w" sound simply disappeared rather than turning into another sound.

Actually, [w] survives as such in dialects in Germanic languages other than English. For starters, Scots preserves it altogether across the board. Also, in other West Germanic languages, both many southern Dutch and many southern German dialects either preserve it or at least keep it as an approximant of some sort, usually [B] or [v\]. In North Germanic, various northern Swedish dialects, including Dalecarlian, do preserve Common Germanic /w/ as [w] as well; whether one can call Dalecarlian a set of Swedish dialects is another story. Also, Danish has [v\] for Common Germanic /w/, but this may have passed through an intermediate [v] stage, considering that Danish has turned other voiced fricatives in it to approximants as well.

Note that when I speak of Danish above, I mean specifically Standard Danish, as I do not have enough information on Jutish dialects to really say much about them myself.

True, the English "w" sound was the original sound in both I.E. and in Proto-Germanic.

In North Germanic (i.e. Old Norse), if the sound was followed by a "u", it sometimes blended with that sound, as in "undar" (cf. Old Eng. "wundor"), otherwise, it became a "v" sound.

In German, it became a "v" sound as well.

Dutch preserves a medial "w-v" sound. When followed by a "u" sound, as in "Dank U well" (-Thank you much, pronounced "Dank Ue well" with a "w" sound), and in words like vrouw where it is pronounced like a "w". Otherwise, the "w" is pronounced between "w" and "v".

Afrikaans pronounces "w" as "v".

Russian and German accents are sometimes parodied in English by, among other things, pronouncing English "v" sounds as "w" sounds ("a bottle of wodka"). This puzzled me since when you learn the standard textbook versions of the languages, neither has the "w" sound. I chalked it up to there being some variability or fluidity in how the "v" sound is made in languages where it doesn't have to contrast with a "w" sound, or to nonstandard dialects. That's why I used the term "standard language" in my post.

The info about Dutch is interesting and seems to support my idea about there being a sort of continuum between "v" and "w" in some languages where there aren't separate phonemes for the two sounds. Is there an IPA symbol for an intermediate v/w?

>>The info about Dutch is interesting and seems to support my idea about there being a sort of continuum between "v" and "w" in some languages where there aren't separate phonemes for the two sounds. Is there an IPA symbol for an intermediate v/w?<<

What you are referring to is [v\], and yes, there are most definitely Dutch dialects which have this for Common Germanic /w/ (orthographic <w>), and which contrast it with [v] from Common Germanic /f/ and /B/ (or /b/ depending on your analysis).

I think w is in walloon, but maybe it's little different that the english w so the linguists will give it another symbol. French has a sound very similar but differntly written (spelled ).

I don't know about linguistics/ phonetic at all, so it would be interesting if Travis can tell about those languages and their w.

Thanks :-)


About the w in ducth, the people from Aruba and Netheralnds Antilles pronounce a very extreme w, and it's very similar with the english w, not the ducth w/v sound.

>>I don't know about linguistics/ phonetic at all, so it would be interesting if Travis can tell about those languages and their w.<<

I myself am not as familiar with Romance languages as I am with Germanic languages, but I do have to note that [w] in Oïl languages such as French or Walloon is not linked with Classical Latin /w/, which became [v] in all the Romance languages. Rather, such is generally due to developments such as vowel changes (such as historical [oi] becoming [we] and then later [wa] in French) or loans from Germanic languages (where /w/ generally became [gw] upon being borrrowed).

Actually, I need to qualify my previous statement - cases of Classical Latin /w/ in clusters in onsets were preserved as such, such as in Classical Latin "aqua", which became Standard Italian "acqua", for instance.

The letter "W" first appeared in English (or rather Old English) before any other language. Any other language that uses the letter W has just borrowed it from English.

Eh non mon cher Adam... Les Anglo-saxons se sont servis du monogramme <u> ou du digramme <uu> pour représenter le son /w/. Dans le premier cas il s'agit d'une nouvelle valeur phonémique affectée à une lettre existante, et dans le second il s'agit du redoublement d'une lettre existante. Donc aucune invention.

Ce que les Anglo-saxons ont inventé, c'est la lettre <ƿ> (inusitée aujourd'hui) pour transcrire le son /w/. En d'autres termes, le couple formé par <u> & <uu> (simple recyclage) a été mis en concurrence avec <ƿ> (innovation), et c'est <ƿ> qui l'a emporté.

Jusqu'à ce que tes amis français débarquent à Hastings en 1066 pour introduire le monogramme <ɯ>, qui n'était autre que le digramme <uu> ligaturé. Ce sont donc bien les Français installés en Grande-Bretagne qui ont éclipsé le <u>, le <uu> & le <ƿ> anglo-saxons destinés à transcrire /w/. Ils l'ont remplacé par <ɯ>, l'ancêtre direct de <w>.