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Vosotros vs Ustedes usage by native speakers travelling
When a native Spanish speaker from Latin America travels to Spain, will he use "vosotros' or keep using "ustedes' and vice versa with a Spanish person going to Latin America? Is it an easy thing to switch over? What do people think of this?
Thanks.
They keep speaking in the way that comes natural. That's using 'ustedes' for Latinamericans and 'vosotros' for Spaniards. No matter where they go.
It's easy for some people, it depends. I'd say it's easier for Spaniards to switch to the 'ustedes' from, since they use both. But some Latinamerican who is not familiar with the conjugation of certain verbs in the 'vosotros' forms may find it a bit weird at the beginning. Anyway, anyone doing this would feel very strange I guess. But it's entirely unnecessary. We understand each other no matter whether they use 'ustedes' or 'vosotros' conjugations. Kind regards Pete from Peru
What if they move there forever, would they eventually switch over or are there latin americans who've lived in Spain for 20 years who still use ustedes?
I agree with Pete, the two forms are (normally) mutually intelligible. My great grandmother emigrated from Spain to Latin America in the 1920s and she kept using the "vosotros" form all her life, even though all she heard around her was "ustedes". Curiously enough, I remember in primary school we were taught the "vosotros" form for verb conjugations. I hope they don't do that anymore.
<<Curiously enough, I remember in primary school we were taught the "vosotros" form for verb conjugations. I hope they don't do that anymore.>>
Why do you hope that? Are you a fan of ignorance?
If Spanish is not your native tongue then it's advisable to speak with vosotros in Spain and Ustedes in Latin America, if you are capable of both.
<<Curiously enough, I remember in primary school we were taught the "vosotros" form for verb conjugations. I hope they don't do that anymore.>>
Yeah, me too. I think that comes from Religion. Well, I'm 22 so when I was at school they taught us to say the prayers with the 'vosotros' thing. And also the bible was in that format. But things have changed, I think they don't do that anymore. As for me, now I pray the 'Padre nuestro' the way I want, I never say 'vosotros' or anything of the sort. Well, I do... but only when I'm putting on my fake Castillian accent to have fun with my mates. Kind regards Pete from Peru
In the past 10-15 years Spain has been greatly exposed to Central and South American varieties. More so than in the past two hundred years.
There are several reasons: first of all Spain, as a rich first world country, has received hundreds of thousands of immigrants from countries such as Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuadors and many others. We hear South-Americans speakers every day in the streets. I live in a medium size city (200,000 inh) and at least 5% of the population is South American and many have married Spaniards. They keep their accents but they tend to water down the slight differences after a few years. They go back to their own varieties when they speak with people from their country. The same happens with Brits living in the USA or USA citizens living in Britain. The other thing is that we receive lots of soap operas and TV programmes from quite a fwe countries: like Colombia, Venezuela or even Cuba and Mexico. Nothing is dubbed at all. The phonetic differences are far less than between British and American English. We also receive Galavisión (Mexican) and even the Cuban International TV in the original and a few others. We do have quite a few Cubans in Spain and, of course, Mexico has always been greatly loved in Spain. We tend to imitate their accent very much the same way Pedrito el Peruano does with Castilian Spanish. Spanish actors have acted in South American films for ages, since the 1930s and 1940s. Central and South American actors have often been featured in Spanish films. In some cases the Spaniardsadapt, more or less, to a kind of South American broad standard (y/ll, s for c/z). The fact is Standard South American is very often regional Peninsular Spanish use. European Spaniards adapt much more than our Central and South American counterparts. We are used to a great regional variety within Spain. Many words have come back into use. An example, "Lindo/a" is often heard nowadays, spoken by Spaniards who usually use "bonito/a". Many of these words are Classical Spanish usages, which were already known through the reading of Spanish classics. South-American authors are also very popular and they are often interviewed in TV. There is also one market for pop singers and many Spanish and South American singers are as popular in Spain as they are in South America. Therefore, learning the difference between "vosotros" and "ustedes" is part of our common heritage. I, as a Spaniard, use "vosotros" in closer relationships and "ustedes" in more formal situations; with people I don't know well or with older people, for instance. Nevertheless, in some Spanish regions they only use "ustedes" or even "vosotros". In the Basque Country people tend to use "vosotros" but they'll tend to use "ustedes" in Andalucía or the Canary Islands. Please excuse me if I don't revise this text.
<<<<Curiously enough, I remember in primary school we were taught the "vosotros" form for verb conjugations. I hope they don't do that anymore.>>
Why do you hope that? Are you a fan of ignorance? >> Hardly. But certainly the use of "ustedes" is not considered "ignorance" by neither the general population nor the Real Academia. I'm opposed to the prescriptive teaching of a supposedly received standard which is geographically and socially inappropriate.
Amigo Gabriel:
Supongo que se pueden aprender usos activos y usos pasivos de una misma lengua. Es evidente que uno no tiene porqué utilizar todo el inventario de lo aprendido en la escuela. No obstante, la cultura consiste en tener un abanico lo más amplio posible de las posibilidades (geogràficas, sociales e incluso históricas) que ofrece la lengua. Así el ser culto, el que desearíamos que saliese de las aulas después de un largo periodo de escolarización, sería aquél con un equipaje extenso de las posibilidades expresivas del código lingüístico. Por ejemplo, un hablante culto que no sea argentino puede estar familiarizado, sin necesidad real de usarlo activamente al no ser que se mude allá, de las posibilidades morfológicas propias de la modalidad argentina. Es mucha la literatura argentina que nos interesa a todos. En lo que se refiere a "vosotros" y "ustedes", según situaciones geográficas o de formalidad, estamos ante dos elementos de gran vitalidad en gran parte del territorio de lengua española, tanto en el peninsular europeo como en las Américas u otros continentes con colonias de hispanohablantes.
Naturalmente, no puedo estar en desacuerdo con lo que planteás. Creo que la escuela debe formar un hispanohablante capaz de manejar y comprender diferentes variantes de la lengua que le permitan acceder a los riquísimos textos literarios tanto de la península ibérica como del continente americano. Mi objeción es, sin embargo, contra la enseñanza exclusiva de la forma "vosotros" en una escuela ubicada en una ciudad y en un país en el que el uso habitual es "ustedes". Tiene un cierto efecto enajenante.
Por curiosidad, acabo de ir al diccionario de la Real Academia y veo, para mi sorpresa, que la palabra "ustedes" no está en el diccionario.
Debe ser que es el plural de "usted" en cambio "vosotros" se utiliza exclusivamente en plural. ¿Entiendes el por qué ahora?
Estoy de acuerdo contigo que no se debe enseñar exclusivamente una forma obsoleta en una región donde se utiliza otra forma tan digna y literaria como la otra. Estoy totalmente de acuerdo en lo de la enajenación que se deriva de esta didáctica alienante. Fíjate que llamo a mi padre de "Vd." (usted) mientras llamo a mi madre de "tu". Cosas de familia. Ahora, les hablo de vosotros cuando me dirijo a ambos.
<<Debe ser que es el plural de "usted" en cambio "vosotros" se utiliza exclusivamente en plural. ¿Entiendes el por qué ahora? >>
"Usted" aparece definido de la siguiente manera: 1. pron. person. Forma de 2.ª persona usada por tú como tratamiento de cortesía, respeto o distanciamiento. Al menos en mi habla habitual, la palabra "ustedes" no se ajusta al plural de "usted" así definido, porque no acarrea consigo ninguna connotación de cortesía, respeto o distanciamiento. Es la única palabra que tengo para referirme a un grupo de dos o más personas a las que me dirijo en segunda persona, sean sus excelencias los reyes o una manga de atorrantes de barrio.
Por lo tanto, amigo Gabriel, ruego te pongas en contacto con la Academia Argentina de la Lengua Española (¿eres argentino?) y que te aclaren el asunto y que, además, incluyan la recitificación pertinente en la próximo edición del diccionario. Sabrás que el DRAE incluye todo el caudal aprobado y aportado por las academias de todos los países hispanohablantes.
Ahora mismo me voy al diccionario a ver que es un "atorrante" aunque por el contexto creo que capto el significado. Debe ser algo así como unos barriobajeros.
No, no soy argentino sino uruguayo. En general, estoy bastante satisfecho por la inclusión de uruguayismos en el DRAE (según las cifras del propio diccionario, en proporción a su población, Uruguay es uno de los países cuyo hablar está mejor representado).
Con respecto al significado de "atorrante", estuviste bastante cerca. Un atorrante es un vago, un inútil. |