Which living indo-european languages are considered by linguists as most archaic ones?
Most oldest (archaic) indo-european languages.
Well no language is really more archaic than another. The Baltic languages (Lithuanian, Latvian) preserve some features of Proto-Indo-European that other branches don't.
Albanian (ancestor of the Illyrian language) is the oldest language in Europe. Basque as well could be a candidate. However, no one knows really where it stemmed from. I'll say this though, The Basque people are the closest to the original Europeans (i.e. appearance, blood, color of hair / eyes etc.) of the ancient past.
In my perspective.
In my perspective.
How do you know what the original Europeans looked like?
Anyway, Basque is not an Indo-European language. To say that Albanian is the oldest language in Europe is foolish; it's been around for about the same amount of time as the other language families of Europe. Albanian is also not 100% accepted as an Illyrian language; some linguists argue that Illyrian died out in the early AD period. Modern Albanian has borrowed heavily from Turkish, Greek, and the Slavic languages, so cannot really be called 'archaic'.
Anyway, Basque is not an Indo-European language. To say that Albanian is the oldest language in Europe is foolish; it's been around for about the same amount of time as the other language families of Europe. Albanian is also not 100% accepted as an Illyrian language; some linguists argue that Illyrian died out in the early AD period. Modern Albanian has borrowed heavily from Turkish, Greek, and the Slavic languages, so cannot really be called 'archaic'.
">How do you know what the original Europeans looked like? <"
It's due to their high RH negative blood. The Basque people have the highest concertation of all Europe / Northern-Africa.
http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf085/sf085a02.htm
&
http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r110199a.shtml
">Anyway, Basque is not an Indo-European language.<"
Some have suggested it could be a early proto-Iberian language. While others have said it has potential to be a oriental language. Whether it's European or Asiatic, it is thus far inconclusive and no one holds truth in depicting their lineage. It's 50 / 50 I say..;)
">Modern Albanian has borrowed heavily from Turkish, Greek, and the Slavic languages, so cannot really be called 'archaic'.<"
Okay. What's your view on Romanian? It too has borrowed heavily from French / Italian / Bulgarian / Greek etc. So is it STILL a romance language? Yes.
Do you see the analogy? ;)
It's due to their high RH negative blood. The Basque people have the highest concertation of all Europe / Northern-Africa.
http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf085/sf085a02.htm
&
http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r110199a.shtml
">Anyway, Basque is not an Indo-European language.<"
Some have suggested it could be a early proto-Iberian language. While others have said it has potential to be a oriental language. Whether it's European or Asiatic, it is thus far inconclusive and no one holds truth in depicting their lineage. It's 50 / 50 I say..;)
">Modern Albanian has borrowed heavily from Turkish, Greek, and the Slavic languages, so cannot really be called 'archaic'.<"
Okay. What's your view on Romanian? It too has borrowed heavily from French / Italian / Bulgarian / Greek etc. So is it STILL a romance language? Yes.
Do you see the analogy? ;)
<<How do you know what the original Europeans looked like? >>
One could argue that the fringe populations of swart/dark skinned peoples living on certain islands (like the British Isles) and in remote areas of Europe (like the Basques) represent what the population of ancient Europeans looked like, or at least an approximation. It is plausible.
Later, fair-skinned Indo-Europeans moved in from the east, followed by later Asiatics.
One could argue that the fringe populations of swart/dark skinned peoples living on certain islands (like the British Isles) and in remote areas of Europe (like the Basques) represent what the population of ancient Europeans looked like, or at least an approximation. It is plausible.
Later, fair-skinned Indo-Europeans moved in from the east, followed by later Asiatics.
<<Okay. What's your view on Romanian? It too has borrowed heavily from French / Italian / Bulgarian / Greek etc. So is it STILL a romance language? Yes.
Do you see the analogy? ;)>>
I didn't say that borrowing changed Albanian's genetic classification, which is impossible; I just said that extensive borrowing makes it hard to consider Albanian archaic.
<<http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r110199a.shtml >>
*LOL* This site is about reptilian aliens who abduct Rh-negative people. Hahaha nice evidence. Seriously though, just because Basques have a certain genetic feature doesn't mean that they are the 'original Europeans'. Besides, take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people#Genetics
The Basques might not be as isolated as you think.
Do you see the analogy? ;)>>
I didn't say that borrowing changed Albanian's genetic classification, which is impossible; I just said that extensive borrowing makes it hard to consider Albanian archaic.
<<http://www.reptilianagenda.com/research/r110199a.shtml >>
*LOL* This site is about reptilian aliens who abduct Rh-negative people. Hahaha nice evidence. Seriously though, just because Basques have a certain genetic feature doesn't mean that they are the 'original Europeans'. Besides, take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people#Genetics
The Basques might not be as isolated as you think.
To consider Albanian and Illyrian the same is a view that has not been proved,just a hypothesis.
Maybe Albanians have some illyrothracian dna
but that does not help in linguistics.
The most ancient is Hindi,an evolution of sanskrit which has attested inscriptions and books
Sanskrit (संस्कृता वाक् saṃskṛtā vāk, for short संस्कृतम् saṃskṛtam) is a classical language of India, a liturgical language of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, and one of the 23 official languages of India. It has the same status in Nepal as well.
Its position in the cultures of South and Southeast Asia is akin to that of Latin and Greek in Europe and the Mediterranean (the Greco-Roman World) and it has evolved into many modern-day languages of the Indian subcontinent. It appears in pre-Classical form as Vedic Sanskrit, with the language of the Rigveda being the oldest and most archaic stage preserved. Dating back to as early as 1700 BC, Vedic Sanskrit is the earliest attested Indo-Aryan language, and one of the earliest attested members of the Indo-European language family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit
Maybe Albanians have some illyrothracian dna
but that does not help in linguistics.
The most ancient is Hindi,an evolution of sanskrit which has attested inscriptions and books
Sanskrit (संस्कृता वाक् saṃskṛtā vāk, for short संस्कृतम् saṃskṛtam) is a classical language of India, a liturgical language of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, and one of the 23 official languages of India. It has the same status in Nepal as well.
Its position in the cultures of South and Southeast Asia is akin to that of Latin and Greek in Europe and the Mediterranean (the Greco-Roman World) and it has evolved into many modern-day languages of the Indian subcontinent. It appears in pre-Classical form as Vedic Sanskrit, with the language of the Rigveda being the oldest and most archaic stage preserved. Dating back to as early as 1700 BC, Vedic Sanskrit is the earliest attested Indo-Aryan language, and one of the earliest attested members of the Indo-European language family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit
And even if you consider Illyrian and Albanian the same language
Illyrians appears in balkan history around 1225 BC.
after Middle East Indoeuropean(Indo-iranian) people Minor Asians and Greeks
Glottochronology
Even more recently, a study of the presence/absence of different words across Indo-European using stochastic models of word evolution (Gray and Atkinson, 2003) suggests that the origin of Indo-European goes back about 8500 years, the first split being that of Hittite from the rest (Indo-Hittite hypothesis). Gray and Atkinson go to great lengths to avoid the problems associated with traditional approaches to glottochronology. However, it must be noted that the calculations of Gray and Atkinson rely entirely on Swadesh lists, and while the results are quite robust for well attested branches, their calculation of the age of Hittite, which is crucial for the Anatolian claim, rests on a 200 word Swadesh list of one single language and are regarded as contentious. Interestingly, a more recent paper (Atkinson et al, 2005) of 24 mostly ancient languages, including three Anatolian languages, produced the same time estimates and early Anatolian split.
A scenario that could reconcile Renfrew's beliefs with the Kurgan hypothesis suggests that Indo-European migrations are somehow related to the submersion of the northeastern part of the Black Sea around 5600 BC:[3] while a splinter group who became the proto-Hittite speakers moved into northeastern Anatolia around 7000 BC, the remaining population would have gone northward, evolving into the Kurgan culture, while others may have escaped far to the northeast (Tocharians) and the southeast (Indo-Iranians). While the time-frame of this scenario is consistent with Renfrew, it is incompatible with his core assumption that Indo-European spread with the advance of agriculture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans
Illyrians appears in balkan history around 1225 BC.
after Middle East Indoeuropean(Indo-iranian) people Minor Asians and Greeks
Glottochronology
Even more recently, a study of the presence/absence of different words across Indo-European using stochastic models of word evolution (Gray and Atkinson, 2003) suggests that the origin of Indo-European goes back about 8500 years, the first split being that of Hittite from the rest (Indo-Hittite hypothesis). Gray and Atkinson go to great lengths to avoid the problems associated with traditional approaches to glottochronology. However, it must be noted that the calculations of Gray and Atkinson rely entirely on Swadesh lists, and while the results are quite robust for well attested branches, their calculation of the age of Hittite, which is crucial for the Anatolian claim, rests on a 200 word Swadesh list of one single language and are regarded as contentious. Interestingly, a more recent paper (Atkinson et al, 2005) of 24 mostly ancient languages, including three Anatolian languages, produced the same time estimates and early Anatolian split.
A scenario that could reconcile Renfrew's beliefs with the Kurgan hypothesis suggests that Indo-European migrations are somehow related to the submersion of the northeastern part of the Black Sea around 5600 BC:[3] while a splinter group who became the proto-Hittite speakers moved into northeastern Anatolia around 7000 BC, the remaining population would have gone northward, evolving into the Kurgan culture, while others may have escaped far to the northeast (Tocharians) and the southeast (Indo-Iranians). While the time-frame of this scenario is consistent with Renfrew, it is incompatible with his core assumption that Indo-European spread with the advance of agriculture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans
<<Anyway, Basque is not an Indo-European language>>
No, it's a pre-indoeuropean language...,
The Basque language always seemed to be the native and autochtonous language of the current region, which formerly was bigger (Occitania places+Catalonia places+ Aquitaine + Ebre Valley + all Pyrenees) from Monpellier to Bordeaux, from Andorra la vella to Santander...
The first papers of Aquitanique (a variant of the primal Basque) show that the language little changed certainly since thousands of years.
But! I heard an interesting thing: we would have found a stele of the antic Burdigala (actual Bordeaux), telling an ancient legend: "the earth trembled, the water gobbles up any lands (perhaps the Black Sea... we can see the great similarity with the Bible Genesis and the Deluge), we left westward, towards parts where the gods took us."
The Basque nomads or autochthons? The mystery remains whole...
<<To say that Albanian is the oldest language in Europe is foolish>>
Curious, Albanian has similarities with Basque, Etruscan, Ouralo-altaic languages, and Japanese!
All these languages have similarities...
While certain languages quickly developed, some little evolved little from the proto-language of Africa.
Bizarrely, all these languages benefited from natural barriers (mountains of the Basque country and the Iberic peninsula, isolated Islands of Japan, Caucasian massif for the Caucasian languages, the rigorous climate of Ural and Siberia, Insulation of the Amerindian languages during several millenniums...)
<<Basques have a certain genetic feature doesn't mean that they are the 'original Europeans'.>>
Other hypothesis, all European ancestors spoke a proto-form of basque, my Basque professor, guaranteed to me that some place names as rivers, towns, regions resulted from a very ancient language present all around Europe.
We saw these place-names look like Basque appelations a lot...
Toponyms of places:
karpe (the Karpathian moutains): proto-european language: in Basque k(h)arr: the rock (it's same in Armenian (khar), Gaelic (carraig ), Albanian (karpë) archaic Polish (karpa)
bun, munho (in basque): 'mound, knoll or hillock' : Bunus < Bunoz, Munich ;popular etypology with "moines"), Monaco < *Monoecu-, Monein…
ibar (basque) 'river' > 'valley' : Iberia, Ebro, Ebron (Aragon, Provence), Ibar (Montenegro), Ebrach, Ibra (Germany), Ybbs (Austria)… derivated
ibai (basque) 'river' > 'bay' : Baía / Bahia (Brasil), Wey, Wye (England, Wales), Bayonne < *Baihun(a), etc.
Elisabeth Hamel and Theo Vennemann, in their article: " the Basque was the primitive language of the continent ", support that in Germany, the place-names ibar 'valley' are there reinterpreted to eber 'wild boar'. Others remain faithful to the explanation by the Celtic eburos 'yew'.
(complete article in french: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toponymie_basque)
All that to show you that linguistics in europe was uniform formerly, a long time, then say that the Neandertal spoke a similar language... We don't know it, but linguistic exchanges certainly existed and we have certainly tracks...
No, it's a pre-indoeuropean language...,
The Basque language always seemed to be the native and autochtonous language of the current region, which formerly was bigger (Occitania places+Catalonia places+ Aquitaine + Ebre Valley + all Pyrenees) from Monpellier to Bordeaux, from Andorra la vella to Santander...
The first papers of Aquitanique (a variant of the primal Basque) show that the language little changed certainly since thousands of years.
But! I heard an interesting thing: we would have found a stele of the antic Burdigala (actual Bordeaux), telling an ancient legend: "the earth trembled, the water gobbles up any lands (perhaps the Black Sea... we can see the great similarity with the Bible Genesis and the Deluge), we left westward, towards parts where the gods took us."
The Basque nomads or autochthons? The mystery remains whole...
<<To say that Albanian is the oldest language in Europe is foolish>>
Curious, Albanian has similarities with Basque, Etruscan, Ouralo-altaic languages, and Japanese!
All these languages have similarities...
While certain languages quickly developed, some little evolved little from the proto-language of Africa.
Bizarrely, all these languages benefited from natural barriers (mountains of the Basque country and the Iberic peninsula, isolated Islands of Japan, Caucasian massif for the Caucasian languages, the rigorous climate of Ural and Siberia, Insulation of the Amerindian languages during several millenniums...)
<<Basques have a certain genetic feature doesn't mean that they are the 'original Europeans'.>>
Other hypothesis, all European ancestors spoke a proto-form of basque, my Basque professor, guaranteed to me that some place names as rivers, towns, regions resulted from a very ancient language present all around Europe.
We saw these place-names look like Basque appelations a lot...
Toponyms of places:
karpe (the Karpathian moutains): proto-european language: in Basque k(h)arr: the rock (it's same in Armenian (khar), Gaelic (carraig ), Albanian (karpë) archaic Polish (karpa)
bun, munho (in basque): 'mound, knoll or hillock' : Bunus < Bunoz, Munich ;popular etypology with "moines"), Monaco < *Monoecu-, Monein…
ibar (basque) 'river' > 'valley' : Iberia, Ebro, Ebron (Aragon, Provence), Ibar (Montenegro), Ebrach, Ibra (Germany), Ybbs (Austria)… derivated
ibai (basque) 'river' > 'bay' : Baía / Bahia (Brasil), Wey, Wye (England, Wales), Bayonne < *Baihun(a), etc.
Elisabeth Hamel and Theo Vennemann, in their article: " the Basque was the primitive language of the continent ", support that in Germany, the place-names ibar 'valley' are there reinterpreted to eber 'wild boar'. Others remain faithful to the explanation by the Celtic eburos 'yew'.
(complete article in french: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toponymie_basque)
All that to show you that linguistics in europe was uniform formerly, a long time, then say that the Neandertal spoke a similar language... We don't know it, but linguistic exchanges certainly existed and we have certainly tracks...
Latvian probably can be considered as one of the most oldest living Indo-European languages.
http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi201.htm
http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi201.htm
The Basque has resemblance with amerindian, sibero-ouralic, japanese or mongol languages:
example:
"ME"
Algonquian=Basque=Nahuatl=NI
plus:
Guiliaco (siberian):N'I
"YOU" (2 sing. pers.)"
Basque=HI (protobasque -KI)
Mongolian=CHI, SHI
Algonquian=KI
Nahuatl (Aztec)=TI
Guiliaco=CHI
Querecan (siberian)=HEN
"WE"
Basque=Inuit Language=GU
Protoaltaic=MU
"YOU"(2 plu.pers.)
Basque=ZU /su/
Tungusic(Siberian)=SU /su/
Basque EGUN "day" with Burushaski GON "dawn".
Let us now take this stem right the way through Dene-Caucasian. (I cannot reproduce all the phonetic symbols, so I will attempt the best possible approximation.)
Basque EGUN
Iberian IGUN
North Caucasian *-GINV
Sumerian GUN "bright"
Burushaski GON "dawn"
Old Chinese *KWANG "bright"
Yeniseian *GE'N "bright"
Haida KUNG "sun"
Tlingit -GAN "sun"
Eyak JAH
Athabankan JANIH
Amazing comparisons with Eskimo and Basque:
COMPARISON OF BASQUE & ESKIMO VOCULABARIES
1 (Eskimo English)
aliak to please
2 (Basque English)
alaia pleasing
1 amaamak mother
2 ama mother
1 amaruq wolf
2 amarruki cunningly
1 aming skin for kayak
2 mintz skin
1 angi tall
2 andi tall
1 angiak spirit of a murdered child
2 angaila stretcher
1 angun man
2 ango native person
1 ania brother
2 anaia brother
1 aninga her brother
2 anaia brother
1 ano dog harness
2 ano dog feed
1 apumang gunwhale
2 apurkor fragile
1 aqittuq tender, weak
2 akitu tired
1 aqu stern of the boat
2 akulu to push, to prod
1 ataatak grandfather, father
2 aita father
1 atiq name, namesake
2 atikidura family tie
1 arautaq snow beater
2 arrau-taka oar-to hit, hit with
(...)
see more at:
http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/eskimo.htm
(Suite in French, sorry, I have no time to translate! I am going to go to the bed :) Good night!)
An interesting extract about the Atlantis Hypothesis and Isolated language comparisons:
"On sait maintenant que certaines langues sibériennes ont une ressemblance avec le basque. C'est ainsi que la langue des nomades éleveurs de rennes habitant la presqu'île de Tchoukotska, à l'extrême nord-est de l'Asie, révèle des assonances avec le basque. Le colonel Braghine (atlantologue) dit dans son ouvrage L'énigme de l'Atlantide :
J'ai été témoin du fait qu'un ancien officier russe d'ascendance géorgienne, à son arrivée dans le nord de l'Espagne, pouvait s'entretenir avec les gens du cru. II parlait géorgien, mais les Basques le comprenaient.
Mais Braghine dit aussi que le basque aurait une analogie frappante avec le japonais. II va plus loin en disant:
Au Guatémala, on m'a souvent parlé d'une tribu d'Indiens qui vivent dans le nord du pays, dans la région de Peten. Cette tribu parle une langue qui offre des similitudes avec le basque et je connais le cas d'un missionnaire basque qui a prêché avec beaucoup de succès dans sa langue maternelle.
Braghine, pour ses recherches, se rendit dans la ville de Tula près de Peten. II visita la tribu des Otomi. Voici ce qu'il dit à ce sujet :
Ces indiens parlent l'ancien dialecte japonais, et quand l'ambassadeur du Japon, en visite, s'adressa à ces Indiens, c'est dans cet ancien dialecte qu'il s'entretint avec eux.
Force est de constater qu'à la base de tout ces idiomes apparentés, doit nécessairement se trouver une langue extrêmement ancienne."
( http://gdelaage.over-blog.com/article-6469036.html )
example:
"ME"
Algonquian=Basque=Nahuatl=NI
plus:
Guiliaco (siberian):N'I
"YOU" (2 sing. pers.)"
Basque=HI (protobasque -KI)
Mongolian=CHI, SHI
Algonquian=KI
Nahuatl (Aztec)=TI
Guiliaco=CHI
Querecan (siberian)=HEN
"WE"
Basque=Inuit Language=GU
Protoaltaic=MU
"YOU"(2 plu.pers.)
Basque=ZU /su/
Tungusic(Siberian)=SU /su/
Basque EGUN "day" with Burushaski GON "dawn".
Let us now take this stem right the way through Dene-Caucasian. (I cannot reproduce all the phonetic symbols, so I will attempt the best possible approximation.)
Basque EGUN
Iberian IGUN
North Caucasian *-GINV
Sumerian GUN "bright"
Burushaski GON "dawn"
Old Chinese *KWANG "bright"
Yeniseian *GE'N "bright"
Haida KUNG "sun"
Tlingit -GAN "sun"
Eyak JAH
Athabankan JANIH
Amazing comparisons with Eskimo and Basque:
COMPARISON OF BASQUE & ESKIMO VOCULABARIES
1 (Eskimo English)
aliak to please
2 (Basque English)
alaia pleasing
1 amaamak mother
2 ama mother
1 amaruq wolf
2 amarruki cunningly
1 aming skin for kayak
2 mintz skin
1 angi tall
2 andi tall
1 angiak spirit of a murdered child
2 angaila stretcher
1 angun man
2 ango native person
1 ania brother
2 anaia brother
1 aninga her brother
2 anaia brother
1 ano dog harness
2 ano dog feed
1 apumang gunwhale
2 apurkor fragile
1 aqittuq tender, weak
2 akitu tired
1 aqu stern of the boat
2 akulu to push, to prod
1 ataatak grandfather, father
2 aita father
1 atiq name, namesake
2 atikidura family tie
1 arautaq snow beater
2 arrau-taka oar-to hit, hit with
(...)
see more at:
http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/eskimo.htm
(Suite in French, sorry, I have no time to translate! I am going to go to the bed :) Good night!)
An interesting extract about the Atlantis Hypothesis and Isolated language comparisons:
"On sait maintenant que certaines langues sibériennes ont une ressemblance avec le basque. C'est ainsi que la langue des nomades éleveurs de rennes habitant la presqu'île de Tchoukotska, à l'extrême nord-est de l'Asie, révèle des assonances avec le basque. Le colonel Braghine (atlantologue) dit dans son ouvrage L'énigme de l'Atlantide :
J'ai été témoin du fait qu'un ancien officier russe d'ascendance géorgienne, à son arrivée dans le nord de l'Espagne, pouvait s'entretenir avec les gens du cru. II parlait géorgien, mais les Basques le comprenaient.
Mais Braghine dit aussi que le basque aurait une analogie frappante avec le japonais. II va plus loin en disant:
Au Guatémala, on m'a souvent parlé d'une tribu d'Indiens qui vivent dans le nord du pays, dans la région de Peten. Cette tribu parle une langue qui offre des similitudes avec le basque et je connais le cas d'un missionnaire basque qui a prêché avec beaucoup de succès dans sa langue maternelle.
Braghine, pour ses recherches, se rendit dans la ville de Tula près de Peten. II visita la tribu des Otomi. Voici ce qu'il dit à ce sujet :
Ces indiens parlent l'ancien dialecte japonais, et quand l'ambassadeur du Japon, en visite, s'adressa à ces Indiens, c'est dans cet ancien dialecte qu'il s'entretint avec eux.
Force est de constater qu'à la base de tout ces idiomes apparentés, doit nécessairement se trouver une langue extrêmement ancienne."
( http://gdelaage.over-blog.com/article-6469036.html )
I must agree with some people here that Albanian might well be the "oldest" language in Europe. More and more well-known professors are comming to the same conclusion lately. Anyway, more studies should be done regarding this fascinating language that has survived millenias.
Welsh is the oldest-surviving language in Europe. That means it's the oldest-surviving Indo-European language in Europe.
Some examples of Welsh -
(Dy)dyn ni ddim yn hoffi coffi - We don't like coffee
and
Gwd lwc. Ai hop ddat yw can ryd ddys and ddat yt meiks sens tw yw. Iff yw can ryd ddys, dden yw ar dwing ffaen and wil haf no problems at ol yn lyrnyng awr ffaen Welsh alffabet.
Good luck: I hope that you can read this, and that it makes sense to you. If you can read this, then you are doing fine and will have no problems at all in learning our fine Welsh alphabet.
Some examples of Welsh -
(Dy)dyn ni ddim yn hoffi coffi - We don't like coffee
and
Gwd lwc. Ai hop ddat yw can ryd ddys and ddat yt meiks sens tw yw. Iff yw can ryd ddys, dden yw ar dwing ffaen and wil haf no problems at ol yn lyrnyng awr ffaen Welsh alffabet.
Good luck: I hope that you can read this, and that it makes sense to you. If you can read this, then you are doing fine and will have no problems at all in learning our fine Welsh alphabet.