some interesting comments about GenAm and RP

Back in late June of this year (2005) I visited Eton and my entry to the school grounds happened to coincide with the beginning of a guided tour. This was on the afternoon after the last day of class. Anyway, our guide was an elderly lady who had taught at Eton for 38 years. When we entered the chapel she referred to a painting depicting the Virgin Mary. She pronounced it "Marey". The first syllable sounded identical to "mare" (the female horse). RP uses the "square" vowel where general American uses an "a" as in "trap" in words like Mary and Pharaoh. (This is also according to J.C. Wells). The elderly lady in question was a U-RP speaker and she a former teacher at Eton. Therefore her pronunciation of "Mary" must be considered correct.

I have, however, heard the word "marry" pronounced with the 'trap' vowel on an English language cassette used by a cousin of mine in Greece to learn English. The programme (program) is called Linguarama. The cassetees date back to 1978. I borrowed only the cassettes and not the books (and even the cassettes I just borrowed for the accent). I am obviously already fluent in English. The speakers are an RP speaking man and woman (unless RP is not their native accent). The man sounds a bit more upper-RP than the woman (use of pre-vowel fricative 'r', final 'y' pronounced as in "kit", not "fleece").

I think RP distinguishes between Mary and marry and I've even been told by one English lady (she and her husband were kind enough to give me a ride from where the aforementioned cousin lives to another village in Crete much further up the road) that "marry" is pronounced with the trap vowel. Those were not her exact words. I'm just using the term "trap vowel" to describe how I heard her pronounce the word "marry". I don't thing Mary and marry are supposed to be homophones in RP. It might very well be that RP purposefully distinguishes between the two words in order to avoid any potential confusion. However, I would greatly appreciate it if someone could clear this up for me. Thank you.

Incidentally, I correctly identified the husband as being from the south-west of England (there was a certain rhoticity to his accent). The wife spoke either RP or near-RP. She happened to be from the Midlands. The husband told me that I sounded like someone from his hometown who had attended Eton. I was flattered and thankful but managed to stay very modest.

On another occasion, I was waiting on line (in queue) to get into a popular London nightclub called "Fabric". This was on Saturday night (well, actually very early Sunday morning) on 2 July 2005. I struck up a conversation with a couple of fellows behind me. The conversation pertained to the length of the queue and the amount of time we would have to wait to get in. These two young fellows had attended the concert in Hyde Park earlier that day and we spoke a bit about that topic aslo. Anyway, one of them said to me: "Where are you from? You have a posh accent." I was extremely flattered. How I answered that question is further beyond the scope of this topic than the last two paragraphs have been so far... The point here is that it is so uncommon to actually meet an RP-speaker face to face in the UK, especially at a place like Fabric (which is a big and popular club - especially with tourists and young Cockneys) that meeting one raises questions and comments. Fabric is not at all like one of those small and very exclusive places where Princes William and Harry frequent and which are very popular with the "in" crowd.

There was also a young male chatterbox ahead of me who was also waiting to get in to Fabric and who struck up a conversation with these same two fellows (who somehow wound up slithering ahead of me in the queue). He had such a broad Cockney accent that he pronounced "Saturday" as "Sa?uhdie". The 't' was neither voiced (as in RP) nor tapped (as in GA) but rather came out as a glottal stop. The final syllable sounded more like "die" (the antonym of "live") rather than day (as in day and night).

JC Wells does mention that even by liberal estimates only 10% of the population of England can be considered RP speakers. Some English people have literally told me that "no one" talks that way. Well, only after having spent a week in London and the sorrounding area did I realise just how bleak the situation is. You see, unlike the 'New York accent' (which today is only used by old people and macho Italian guys and pretty much limited to certain neighbourhoods), Cockney is EXTERMELY PERVASIVE in London. Also, its tentacles spread far and wide - way beyond the East End. To walk into a working class pub in a working class neighbourhood and to talk like Alec Guinness (Obi One Kanobi in Star Wars) is inviting trouble. If you think I'm being overly dramatic you should walk into a working class pool bar outside central London and start up a conversation with a group of Cockney skinheads playing pool using a U-RP accent and see the reaction you will get. You see, unlike GenAm (which is tolerated by macho Italian guys in parts of the New York metro area) RP is NOT tolerated by many working class people in London or elsewhere in the UK.

You see, the US and Canada do NOT have an equivalent to RP. GA, the "correct" accent in the US, pretty much describes the way the average American speaks (about two-thirds of the population of the US). However, RP, the "correct" accent of the UK, is NOT the way the average Briton (or even the average Englishman for that matter speaks). I'm not even sure if mass education in RP would help since the working classes tend to reject RP on purpose because they identify it with "the establishment" and not with themselves. Many non-RP speakers are not necessarily people who CAN'T speak RP but rather people who WON'T speak RP. Many others cannot speak RP and wouldn't choose to speak it even if they could. At the same time, it is pretty obvious that no RP speaker is suddenly going to start speaking "popular London" or Scouse or anything other than RP. It's just how the mentality is in Britain (and has been for the last 500 years or so). There is snobbishness on both sides.

Final comment: It would take an act of God to get even half of England (never mind ALL of BRITAIN) to speak RP. As far as getting the entire English-speaking world to use RP... Well, that would take a REALLY great act of God to come about.

Comments are gretaly welcome.

How many times are you going to start this same topic?

The equivalent of RP in the US is the snooty Boston accent that is heard quite rarely- like RP itself! The only example (I can think of) of this type of accent is a guy who used to be on British TV called Loyd Grossman.

"JC Wells does mention that even by liberal estimates only 10% of the population of England can be considered RP speakers." I'd be surprised if it's even 1%. I've lived my whole life in England and the only time I've ever heard the accent is when I played Rugby at some Boarding schools when I was a kid- never heard it since apart from on the TV!!

What is it with people who insist on faking other people's accents?

What is it with people who insist on faking other people's accents?

When you say "other people's accents" are you implying possession? Do you mean that RP belongs to a certain group of people and that NO ONE ELSE on earth is allowed to speak that way? If a foreign student (say in Italy) of English should happen to acquire RP by having learned it at an early age at an international school should he/she go out of his/her way to speak with an Italian accent just because that's how most people in his/her country speak English? Should he try to imitate Cockney or Scouse? Is he STEALING RP from these "other people" that you mention. Is RP something which exists only in a certain quantity (like gold or oil) and that the only way of acquiring it is by taking it away from someone else??? Also, if someone speaks perfect RP without it being his native accent then what exactly makes it fake? If an English student studies French and is able, through motivation and persistence, to speak with a perfectly standard French acccent is he faking the accent of people in France who speak that way??? Should he NOT try to pronounce words correctly (with a French accent)? Should he instead go OUT of his way to speak French with an English accent to avoid stupid people like you calling his accent "fake"???

If speaking RP is faking other people's accents then dying one's hair blond is faking the hair of Scandinavians and other Nordic peoples. People get tattoos and piercings. Why do they insist on doing this if it's not something they were born with? If you go out and buy the latest fashion aren't you faking your entire appearance? (since someone else designed it - not you - and others were wearing it before you were).

People change so many things about themselves. It would seem to me that changing one's accent is a very minor thing compared to using harsh chemicals to alter your hair colour or to mutilate your body with piercings and tattoos or even to have plastic surgery or liposuction done in order to change your physical appearance. Changing your accent is the LEAST harmful of these and unlike the rest, if you don't like the results, you can always go back quickly and easily.

So why don't you shut the hell up and let each person speak with whatever accent best suits his/her personality and/or current geographic location. Some pople try to acquire RP because it's the ONLY English accent which is easy to study (this is the accent most accompanying British ESL audio material uses) and this what what the BBC (which is some people's ONLY contact with British English) uses. Not everyone is trying to imitate other people's rich and snobby arses. Some people simply want to speak "British" while they are in Britain simply to blend in. (When in Rome do as the Romans do). RP may not be the best way of blending in but it is the accent which is most ACCESSIBLE to foreign speakers who do not live in England. JC Wells does an excellent job describing it AND comparing it to Gen Am (there are even word sets). He does not really compare other British accents to Gen Am and many of them do not agree substantially with Gen Am in the lexical incidence of certain vowels. RP, however, does in most cases. Thus, for many Americans and other foreign speakers, RP is the only British accent that CAN be learned (if any British accent is to be learned at all). Some people simply don't like parading around England with a sign over their heads saying "Hey, I'm from country X" which is essentially what you're doing when you are not "faking" someone else's accent.

For some people, blending in when they visit a foreign country or region is of great importance. They prefer to disclose their nationality or origin only to certain people that they've gotten to know and feel comfortable with. All I ask is that you respect that. You have no right to judge people using an accent other than their original one until you know the true motivation behind why they are doing so. You might find that it is not always for a bad purpose (such caricature or sarcasm). You might find that their reasons go much deeper than that. In some cases, making the effort to use the accent of the region you're in rather than the region you're from is a sign of respect, not direspect. (kind of like speaking Spanish when you visit Spain even though it may not be your native language and you may not be from Spain). For some people who they are is not based on what accent they choose to use or what language they choose to speak. It's what's in their heart that counts. You can change your accent and still keep your heart intact.

I'm not aware of any differences in British and American pronunciations of Mary / marry other than the fact that the r of British English is a little different than that of General American...according to some linguists, more like Japanese r thus 'very' pronounced by a British or Japanese speaker sounds like "veddy" to most Americans.

American English is phonologically and grammatically a little simpler than British English and the same thing is true of Mexican Spanish and Canadian French with regard to European Spanish and French. I'm not sure anyone knows why. However, their status as colonial varieties probably has nothing to do with it . For example, Icelandic is the product of colonization too but is actually phonetically MORE complex than its relatives in the original homeland: Norwegian, Swedish and Danish.

<<American English is phonologically and grammatically a little simpler than British English and the same thing is true of Mexican Spanish and Canadian French with regard to European Spanish and French.>>

First of all, what is grammatically "simple" is entirely subjective. Your comment is nonsense.

"I'm not aware of any differences in British and American pronunciations of Mary / marry"

Okay, here is one common pronunciation guide:
[m{ri] - marry
[mE:ri] or [mE@ri] - Mary

" other than the fact that the r of British English is a little different than that of General American...according to some linguists, more like Japanese r thus 'very' pronounced by a British or Japanese speaker sounds like "veddy" to most Americans."

That's an inaccurate generalisation. Perhaps for some RP speakers, the "r" is tapped as suggested by "veddy". But the British (excluding Scottish) "r" is generally the same as the General American "r".

<<That's an inaccurate generalisation. Perhaps for some RP speakers, the "r" is tapped as suggested by "veddy". But the British (excluding Scottish) "r" is generally the same as the General American "r".>>

True. The tapped 'r' is quite rare in Southern British English these days, even in ultra-conservative RP.

<<I'm not aware of any differences in British and American pronunciations of Mary / marry>>

There are. While many Americans pronounce those two as [m{r\i] or both as [mEr\i] (or differently as [me\ri]/[mEr\i] and [m{r\i]), the OED lists the British 'Mary' as invariably [mE:r\i] while interestingly it gives "marry" [mar\i]. I think [m{r\i] also applies to British English. Needless to say, the vowels are different for most Americans as compared to most UKers.

My, got you all riled up there, James!

When a person learning another language perfects a native accent, that's a linguistic accomplishment.

But when a native speaker of one dialect deliberately impersonates the dialect of another with the intent of deceiving their listeners, it's no longer a purely linguistic thing. There's a psychological aspect to it. You are falsifying your identity. Now you may have your reasons, but it's still a type of fraud, because you are not being yourself.

This all seems very much like the proverbial tempest in a teapot to me.

<<So why don't you shut the hell up >> etc etc etc......

And the prize for stupid over-reaction of the year goes to....James! FFS, what a rant THAT was!!

<<It would take an act of God to get even half of England (never mind ALL of BRITAIN) to speak RP. >>

Amen to that, I say. Why the hell would anybody want to??

<<"JC Wells does mention that even by liberal estimates only 10% of the population of England can be considered RP speakers." I'd be surprised if it's even 1%.>>

Agree with Rick J here. I'm English and I've never *met* anybody who speaks it.

Perry wants to marry Mary from the dairy then they can make merry when they live in Derry..... or maybe Kerry.....it's all so very contrary.

The RP accent is quite nebulous but generally it is not the main accent of England by any means.....we've discussed this issue time and time again .....it's a wee bit overdone now.

I'm down in Milton Keynes this weekend and a type of Estuary reigns supreme in this area. it's a rapidly developing city and practically the whole population, or their forebears, came from elsewhere in the UK...a large number from London and the rest of the Home Counties (this areas is technically in the HC...originally Buckinghamshire but now MK city in its own right). It has the highest percentage of people under 30 than any other local authority area in the UK.

I was out clubbing last night and actually the Estuaryspeak is not quite a pronounced as I expected......traces of Estuary yes....skipping over the Ts.....and traces of general London without being over Cockney.... but sort of mixed with standard South East / Home Counties English accent. I think it's quite pleasant.

It's not what you would call familiar RP as it is not at all "posh" English....just...sort of "normal" Southern English. I think accent in England is governed by age group really....as well as social status. "Posh" English belongs very much to older people I reckon. Milton Keynes, being a new city, is great because everyone is in the same boat...they all settled here in one fast growing commercial, high-tech development with all the residential and social and leisure facilities that go with it. It's completely classless.

The origial tiny village of Milton Keynes is still the same as it has been for centuries...quaint cottages and large country houses and nice wee timbered and thatched pubs like all the other cute villages that surround the new city. It's only in these villages that you hear the "posh RP" accents of the residents (older people anyway) whose families have probably lived there for yonks before them. The younger people of these villages identify entirely with the huge new city on their doorstep.....certainly that's where they get all their fun.

I'm staying here with a mate from uni..and his family and I like their standard Southern English accent.....it's not RP and it's not mega Estuary......it's sort of "in between"....I could go into a ['tra:nce] but I won't. And they like mine which is ok by me.

Guest = the above soz.

<<I'm not aware of any differences in British and American pronunciations of Mary / marry other than the fact that the r of British English is a little different than that of General American...according to some linguists, more like Japanese r thus 'very' pronounced by a British or Japanese speaker sounds like "veddy" to most Americans.>>

Have you heard of the Mary-merry-marry merger, which is predominant in the US but absolutely nonexistent in Britain? You *are* aware that "Mary" and "marry" aren't homophones in Britain...right?

And as Kirk pointed out, the tapped R is extremely rare in English English.

But then again, according to you, the only dialects of English are Scots, Cockney, and Queens. *rolls eyes*