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Arrogance and Learning English!!!
Obviously Mandarin has far more native speakers than English - I'm surprised it's 'only' 837m (I thought it was over a billion)
<<If anyone concludes with the full approval of his/her conciense that they are morally justifiable reasons,It seems I'm the only one who is scared of the prospect of having a universal language and its consequencies, more like a universal president and its ramifications. >>
It's an interesting question, Stan. Personally I'm not sure that moral reasons come into it, but I mostly agree with you. (trying to extend an olive branch, here). I sincerely doubt you're the only one.
THE TRUTH:
The reasons for the position of English are indeed the imperialism and economical and political importance of English-speaking countries. These days, international jobs require a competent knowledge of the English language, English is the language of the internet, or more exactly a vague collection of languages called "English" because their common origin is the national language spoken in England by the English.
It is clear that, when a language has got the position of a universal language, the position certainly will be affirmed and extended by itself. Since "the world" uses English, people are almost forced to learn English and use it, and learn it better (for the rest of their lives). Even if you expect the majority of your readers to understand your native language, you may be tempted to use English when writing, think of most research works.
For the most hardened of cultrue guardians, even they reallize that just maybe the English language has overtaken the native language in the order of importance. Children in far corners of the world are faced with the reallity that they would infact be more productive if they learned English but never Chinese (who speaks that?).
Is English a suitable universal language?, I guess someone asked that type of question when Greece ruled the world (is Greek a suitable universal language?). There is no such thing as a suitable universal language, only that which brings great elements of economic importance.
The truth is that everyone learning the language are doing so for the profusion of the economic to the political justifications and benefits, amidst the imperialism of the dominant societies (we know which). To relate the substance of certain meditations; I guess these constitute a morbid rationale; that which is immoral in its purpose, but again, when did we become a "moral" people?.
I have absolutely no doubt about the eventuality and consequences of all these, we as a society will always find ethical justification for that which brings affluence in abundance until it blows up in our faces.
Ofcourse I do not expect anyone to support these notions; I do know that oneday, someone will say "he said it" but untill that day comes (I pray it doesn't), I will keep my silence, except to those who would listen.
Hello ! Hi ! Bonjour !
I work in a tea shop in Paris. This job implies speaking with customers from all over the world, especially from US.
What is funny about this question of arrogance is that most of these customers do not first speak to me in French and don't even ask "do you speak English?" before asking me further questions: they start speaking to me in English, assuming the fact that English language is worldly understood, assuming that I would be smart enough to get what they want and answer their request in proper English.
Well, they indeed get my reply in English ("it's time to practice! Yeah!"), but they don't even think of the possibility of me keeping silence because of my non-understanding.
But it's not always the case: sometimes, nice people (humble should I say) from UK/Us, when speaking to me at first, are trying to use their best French, and as they seem to have difficulties to express their wants, I often reply in English...
"Je voudwais un peu de thé...... but.. heaaa, je… je…"
"Are you looking for black tea? green tea? with or without flavour? in a tin? tea bags or loose tea ? "
They look so sad, then, that I feel sorry for them and use my (good) French instead of my (poor) English. This is so unusual to meet English speakers struggling to express their needs in a foreign language!!
The only English from the UK which is good (and, actually, the very best kind of English there is) is RP. The only problem is that no one in the UK (or almost no one) speaks it. The rest is rubbish. I hold general American at a higher level of prestige than certain British accents which are barely comprehensible and which hardly even resemble English.
If you come from a rich family and go to the right school (regardless of whether you grow up in the UK or Yemen) then you have a chance of learning RP. An upper-class foreign student from Yemen who is exposed to RP from a very early stage in life (either through teachers or ESL audio materials) has a better chance of becoming an RP speaker than the average citizen growing up in Britain.
To me that is absolutely pathetic and does not speak very well for the British educational system (only about 10% of England actually speaks Received Standard English).
General American may not have the same status as RP (which I totally understand and even agree with) but at least it is spoken by the vast majority of people growing up in the US or Canada. At least the countries do not have 3 million diffrent accents depending even as to which side of the street you live on.
I know I sound like Professor Higgins but if you really stop and think about it you'll see I have a point.
ANY language in the world is beautiful when spoken the right way. Likewise, EVERY language in the world has the capacity of sounding quite ugly when it's spoken the wrong way.
I hope that with these words of wisdom I have setteled the argument with regard to which languages sound nice and which don't.
It does NOT depend on the language but rather on the speaker.
Now let's see someone try to top THAT one!
Why, thank you, Candy, for the compliment! Haven't been called sane OR nice in a while!
Not sure what any of you are arguing about any more, anyway. Everyone seems to be at cross-purposes here, getting nowhere.
I don't know what's so great about RP, Chris. One English accent is as good as another, to me. Same goes for Australian, South African, New Zealand, etc. They all have their charms. And I've never assigned "statuses" to any of them -- strikes me as silly to try.
As for English being a "universal " language or not -- sure, it's an important language for many people due to economic and political circumstances (sounding like a broken record, yet?), but there are plenty of people who get through their whole lives very comfortably without it, so it's hardly "universal" in the strict sense. And nobody's "forced" to use it. People may find it advantageous to learn it. But people may find lots of different skills advantageous to them, and no one says that hey are "forced" to be mechanics or good cooks or shrewd businessmen.
Most of this flap about English is more about politics than anything else.
Prof Higgins famous words: "Why can't the English teach their children how to speak!"
Knaw wo' oi mean, loike? Bad, innit...... Grunting is de rigueur :-)
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It's so nice to see, in this busy world, somebody with a lot of time on their hands.
"The only English from the UK which is good (and, actually, the very best kind of English there is) is RP. The only problem is that no one in the UK (or almost no one) speaks it. The rest is rubbish. I hold general American at a higher level of prestige than certain British accents which are barely comprehensible and which hardly even resemble English. "
We can say the same about you. Lots of American accents are barely comprehensible and hardly even resemble English - even your SPELLING doesn't resemble English.
When an American speaks, all we hear is "Yeah, man. YEAH! So cool, man. Getting jiggy wid it. Yo, mutha!" (Translation: "Good morning. How are you doing, my friend?)
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"To me that is absolutely pathetic and does not speak very well for the British educational system (only about 10% of England actually speaks Received Standard English). "
Why should British people speak Received Standard English? How many AMERICANS speak it? Why should someone from Liverpool or newcastle speak like the Queen? I can never imagine a Scouser or a Geordie saying "Good Lord! We lost at the cricket today, Old Boy. Still, musn't grumble. How about a spot of tiffin?"
I'd much rather prefer a Scouser saying it the way a Scouser SHOULD say it "F**k me! Those b*stards twatted us in cricket. Let's go to the f*cking pub."
From the London Evening Standard, 4 March 1999. This article was triggered by Beryl Bainbridge's demand that regional accents should be eradicated -- and particularly Scouse, the accent of Liverpool, where she comes from.
Nuffink wrong wiv accents, guv
by Simon Jenkins
The novelist Beryl Bainbridge believes that all children should have elocution lessons to wipe out their regional accents. In receiving an award on Tuesday, she said that being taught to abandon her own Liverpool voice had helped her career no end. As for the kids on Brookside, "They don't speak the English language," she said.
Audrey Hepburn as Liza Doolittle
learns her 'a' from her 'eh'
from Rex Harrison's Mr Higgins
Ms Bainbridge is a writer. How her writing was improved by elocution is a mystery, but this we must take on trust. More to the point is her falling into the Pygmalion trap. Speaking intelligibly, which means with coherent grammar, is quite different from speaking with a particular accent. What, for instance, would she do about London?
I heard Ms Bainbridge speak last month at the Ken Livingstone rally at Central Hall. She used the slightly flattened vowels of educated Camden, yet she referred to her adored Ken as the "real voice" of London. I wonder what she would do to his accent. Mr Livingstone has made something of a trademark of his voice. It is not cockney, neither is it the cockney refinement now called estuary. It has a slightly nasal Midlands twang, as of pre-Irish northwest London. Indeed if I were Shaw's Professor Higgins I would place Mr Livingstone as white-collar-London-and-Birmingham-Railway.
Higgins, of course, was the master of snobbish phonetics. From hearing Pickering talk he could reel off his pedigree as "Cheltenham, Harrow, Cambridge, India". He rudely demanded of Eliza, in Covent Garden, "How do you come to be up so far east? You were born in Lisson Grove." All she had said so far was, "Keptin, n'baw ya flahr orf a pore gel ... Will ye-oo pie me f'them?" He boasted he could name anyone's neighbourhood to within two miles, indeed within two streets. For an appropriate fee he could turn Kentish Town into Park Lane, or take Eliza from Covent Garden to her "Bucknam Pellis".
But Higgins, like Ms Bainbridge, was struggling after a "London voice" that has simply ceased to exist. In the North of England, a London accent tends to mean anything posh. Sometimes London is code for "received" or "standard" or BBC English. Yet it can also be code for the opposite. In a Costa del Sol identity parade, London means yobbish. The Queen's own English is now wonderfully archaic. Dearly is still pronounced "deahleah" and people take tea on teebles and cheers. But when Eliza Doolittle's father talks of being "in me prime", as would his descendants today, it was equally London. It is no more wrong than the pukka "sez" is wrong for "says".
In the film Sliding Doors all eyes may have been on the face of the American Gwyneth Paltrow, but all ears should have been on her voice. She had studiously attuned it to that of an upwardly mobile west London career girl. Her "Notting Hill" English was a welding of a debased "Princess Diana" to the diphthongs of working-class London: "I've go'a'geh'on with my work." The voice is that of thousands of young people eager for a voice that can merge into the verbal Muzak of the city. They must pass muster at dinners and weddings, yet they will strangle their vowels and clip their consonants not to seem out of place in a pub or workplace. Tracing these chameleons across the map of London would test even a Henry Higgins.
Such accents have much to do with the subtle gradations of class in a big city. In London, accent is a way in which groups and neighbourhoods define and defend themselves against newcomers. I am told that old-established residents of Whitechapel regard cockney as aristocratic alongside the near-incomprehensible Bengali-cockney of Brick Lane. But such accents and dialects are neither right nor wrong. Only grammar can be judged in those terms. We do not regard Scotsmen or Irishmen as not speaking properly because of their distinctive accents. So why an East Ender?
I am all for teaching grammar. Speaking clearly is the key to writing clearly and spelling correctly, until, that is, Bernard Shaw's campaign to rationalise spelling comes to glorious fruition (or glorius frewishon). But accent is different. It is not about clarity or meaning but about family and locality. London's accents have always been the building blocks of English, drawn from the entrepôts of the docks and the markets. Like that ultimate verbal melting pot, cockney, they take on the colouring of the city's passing tribes, using, adapting and discarding at will. London English is incomparably the richer for such ethnic imports as clobber and conk, sucker and bunkum, pal, moll, bloke and boozer. It may be that nobody says cor blimey, guv any more. But effing and blinding are working up the social scale. Young Londoners now use West Indian slang as if it were their own: like ... man ... fat ... cool ... wicked.
Some London dialect is charmingly Old English, as in "He was that stuck up" or "I give 'im what for". Some is overtly ethnic, like the Jewish "already". Some of these are anthropological gems. But as William Matthews says in his book Cockney Past and Present, today's London English is England's English tomorrow. Words and pronunciations enter the language through London. They are tested there, in street and pub, before being received as somehow official.
Aristocratic England used to talk with a regional accent, as most of aristocratic Scotland still does. But like the upper-class voice a century ago, the nation's middle-class voice is now merging with middle-class London, as if to give itself national colouring. I find that a pity. It deadens local variety and standardises an aspect of English culture that has no need of standardisation. But then London English is itself becoming standardised. It, too, is killing variety and blurring the boundaries between class and ethnic origin. We are all saying "awrigh" for all right, yeah for yes, or Tony Blair's "Amean ... lessfaysit ... innit?"
The fun of London English has always been its variety and its resistance to the likes of Higgins and Bainbridge. Keep it that way. By all means teach grammar: give young people the weapons to make words their servants, not their masters. But God forbid that the national curriculum should ever get its hands on the kaleidoscope that is the London voice. Wassrong? Issokay, innit?
© Associated Newspapers Ltd., 04 March 1999
Very strange but every time I drive down to the English Border at Carter Bar...or Coldstream...or Berwick...or rarely when I've gone south west to Gretna Green....the huge signs by the roadside all say "WELCOME TO ENGLAND". Just where does this place Shitland come on stream then? Talk about needing a reality check......! And that's genuinely coming from a Scot! Some of my best mates are Shitlanders! LOL They are all way way up above the level of a certain Guest poster.......England is a great place so lay off!!
Candy Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:13 am GMT
>>Whatever. I really can't be bothered to argue about this. I've never tried to say that 'everybody' speaks English, or that people should stop using their native language!! That's absurd.<<
On this point, you are right, Candy. One problem is that the term "universal" is often misleading. We had better to look it up in dictionarys.
English is not universal, but one of the international languages.
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