Is it possible to be like natives?

I mean a 100% like natives?

I mean -- sorry for the repetiton -- if you start learning a langauge in your adulthood, is it possible that you can reach exactly SAME like natives? Have you ever encountered any who became so?

No, not possible. But it doesn't matter.

I'm convinced that it's certainly possible, but it takes a loooong time. It does depend, though. As a white person, I still have a chance of someday being perceived as a native in Mexico, if I wanted to, but I would never be perceived as a native in Japan even if I were born there and lived there all my life. But even foreign-born ethnic Japanese have trouble integrating into Japanese society, because the culture is so different from Western culture, and the language is so different from English and other Western languages. It doesn't help that the Japanese tend to look down upon other Japanese who don't behave like they do, and for whatever reason, their society presents many opportunities for minor -- and not-so-minor -- faux pas to occur. I could integrate into Mexico much more easily than a foreign-born Japanese could integrate into Japan.

- Kef

I think it should be no problem to be like natives

For examples if you want be like US Americans, simply eat burgers watch stupid TV shows and chew gum all day long, always elect stupid presidents like George Bush, never use your brain, never visit other countries, learn no other language than English, always be arrogant against anything non-US and so on ...

And you will be a perfect US American

If you refer to be like the natives with respect to the language I find it a way hard thing to achive but not impossible.

The problem is that always will be something in the accent or intonation which will betray the speaker.

This far, at least about Spanish, I've not heard a foreigner speaking like a native. I've heard very very good and exceptional people speaking but not identical. I think maybe it could be a challenge, but it's not really necessary.

With respect to Spanish I think it's harder for Germanic languages natives, followed by some Asian languages natives and then easier for other Romance languages natives. As to Africans I've never heard one speaking Spanish.

I've met non-native English speakers who started the language as adults, and were virtually indistinguishable from native Americans, or in some cases, native Englishmen. (Try Tom Szynalski's audio clips on Antimoon) And I know of Americans who were taken for native speakers of French, Hebrew, Spanish...

The issue that Kef raised--the matter of looks--is interesting, but is not so simple. I know of people of European descent who grew up in Hong Kong, for example, who other than looks, spoke and acted like any other Cantonese speaker. Similar story for whites in Africa, blacks in Scandinavia, et.

One more thing: Accent is usually considered the one feature that adults cannot acquire the way children do. But maybe it's the result of how we teach (forcing speech right away, instead of a long silent period), and not demanding that learners speak with a perfect accent. (Immigrants are almost never corrected on accent, as long as they are understood.) But a college study did the opposite: They trained adult American students for several days on accent only, before the rest of the language, in Chinese and Japanese. (Hardly the most common languages for Americans.) When the teachers played tapes of the students for native speakers, 9 of the 10 speaking Chinese and 10 of 10 speaking Japanese were judged to be native speakers!

For a fascinating account of a REALLY long (and successful) silent-period approach, try:

http://users.skynet.be/beatola/wot/marvin.html

<<I know of people of European descent who
grew up in Hong Kong, for example, who other than looks, spoke and acted like any other Cantonese speaker. Similar story for whites in Africa, blacks in Scandinavia, et.>>

That's true. I think that more than the look, the language is a better indicator.

I know a guy that came over here from China (Taiwan, i guess), in 1966 to attend college. After 41 years in the US, he seems to have a native accent.

Unless you have practically complete immersion over a significant period of time in what is being learned, no. The fundamental problem is that while you may learn a particular standard language variety perfectly well, you will not have learned to speak in any actual dialect, as such are not generally taught in schools. What one will speak may be "perfect", but it will also be artificial and not representative of everyday speech by actual native speakers, which almost certainly will have many subtle details and variations that one will not be taught in any class. Consequently, to pick such things up one needs to have very significant interaction with native speakers on an everyday basis over a long period of time.

Travis is right, but it's possible, even outside the target language country. I know of a guy who learned perfect Puerto Rican Spanish just by hanging around Puerto Rican friends in Chicago. (Some people, like Antimoon's Tom, did it without the native speaker interaction--just massive inputs of "authentic" material.)

And for a really amazing story, how about a Mexican immigrant who learned fluent Hebrew working in an Israeli restaurant--in Los Angeles:

http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/index.html

One example of a native-like speaker is Mila Kunis, who voices Meg Griffin on the cartoon Family Guy (except in season 1) and played Jackie Burkhart on That 70's Show. She was born in Kiev and moved to the U.S. at age 7. She claims that she learned English by watching Bob Barker on The Price is Right, because he spoke slowly enough that she could understand him. (I'm sure it didn't hurt that Bob Barker has a great personality. Who could hate Bob Barker? :))

Another example of a foreign English speaker who sounds like a native who comes to mind is Kaz Hirai, who was born in Tokyo... he's not a famous TV personality or anything, just the President of Sony's computer games division. But he gave a demonstration at E3 (a computer games show) last year, and what I've heard of his demonstration sounded completely native-like. Just now I decided to check youtube, and there are some videos of him there... his speech sounds perfectly natural to me. He certainly doesn't have anything like what I would call a "Japanese accent".

Looking at his Wikipedia article, though, I would guess that he's had a lot of exposure to English in his early years, continuing throughout his life. I wish I had more information about how he learned English...

- Kef

"(Some people, like Antimoon's Tom, did it without the native speaker interaction--just massive inputs of "authentic" material.)"

Yeah, Tom sounds great but he also sounds like a CNN newsreader. Nevertheless, if I met him on a street and talked to him, I'd assume that he was an American. So there is hope for people out there who want to learn "native" English, but, as Travis says, it will not be the colloquial variety.

I had a linguistics professor from Hungary, who spoke something like 14 languages. Some of them he learned early, but not English. At the time he emigrated to start studies at an American university, his English was poor and he had a strong Hungarian accent. When I first met him, I thought he was a native speaker of English, and definitely of the colloquial variety. I've met others, from a variety of countries--including those who became fluent before emigrating--who could pass for native, COLLOQUIAL speakers.

Si vous apprenez une deuxième langue avant 7-8 ans, vous aurez un accent parfait, comme un vrai parlant de cette langue. Après, ce sera exceptionnel si, pendant toute votre vie, on ne vous fait cette remarque polie: "Mais vous parlez très bien notre langue, monsieur, même si vous avez un tout petit accent".

Moi, qui ai appris l'espagnol à 7-8 ans (ma langue maternelle est le catalan) j'ai toujours gardé un accent très fort, et de même pour le français, qui pourtant a été ma langue conjugale.

Les espagnols qui n'ont pas l'habitude d'entendre le catalan me demandent si je suis russe ou, en tout cas, eslave (le physique aidant). En France on me prend pour un belge, et les Allemands (je parle assez bien l'allemand) pensent que je suis Alsacien (je dois avoir l'accent français en allemand).

Mais les Bulgares (dont je commence à parler la langue) me disent que j'ai un accent parfait. C'est incroyable

Je m'excuse à nouveau pour ne pas écrire en anglais. De mon enfance, la langue étrangère normalement étudiée était le français. Depuis, j'ai eu d'autres priorités.

Miquel

>>Yeah, Tom sounds great but he also sounds like a CNN newsreader. Nevertheless, if I met him on a street and talked to him, I'd assume that he was an American. So there is hope for people out there who want to learn "native" English, but, as Travis says, it will not be the colloquial variety.<<

But that is the matter - most native speakers do not sound like CNN newsreaders, and you are probaby more likely to find a non-native speaker who sounds like one than a native-speaker who sounds like one. One may be completely fluent in English, and possibly even more competent in formal register than the average native speaker, but one will in the end still not sound like the average native speaker for that very reason.